Someone said, The Bible says that God has no form, no image.

[HAZARD]

6 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Amen.  That this should even be disputed indicates that some are unwilling to accept the fact that ultimately God is beyond human reasoning.  But the things of the Spirit are only understood by the spirit and taught by the Spirit.

Hi Ezra,

I am far from being unwilling to accept truth.

Can you please show me ONE Scripture where God says in Scripture that He is beyond human reasoning?

[Guest Teditis]

Isaiah 55:8-9 (KJV)

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[Steve_S]

4 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

Hi Ezra,

I am far from being unwilling to accept truth.

Can you please show me ONE Scripture where God says in Scripture that He is beyond human reasoning?

Well, there are plenty, but, since you asked for just one:

Isa 55:8  "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 
Isa 55:9  "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. 
 

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

Well, there are plenty, but, since you asked for just one:

Isa 55:8  "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 
Isa 55:9  "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. 
 

All these Scriptures teach is this, This is how His ways and thoughts are higher than ours ever were or can be,. . . .  in;

In pardon. Men never would have planned pardon for their enemies, as God did. Men seek revenge on all such and harbour malice and untold hatred, whereas God planned redemption and untold glories for His enemies (John 3:16; Romans 5:8).

In Number of offences, Under favourable and special circumstances men forgive a few times, but  they are prone not to forgive after repeated offences. God forgives freely many times and as completely and lovingly the last time as the first (Matt. 12;31; 18:21-22; 1 john 1:9).

In kinds of offenses. Men usually limit themselves as to what kind of offences they will forgive, but God has o qualifications on this point, except the offence of rejecting the only means of help He can offer (Matt. 12:31-32).

In the degree of offenses. Men will forgive if an offense is small enough not to be of any  great injury to them; but God will forgive the greatest and most aggravated offense against Him (Isa. 53: John 3:16).

In mode of pardon. Men may be willing to forgive if it does not cost them much, and they can see that such is to their advantage; but God gave the most precious gift of heaven that He might have  a basis of forgiveness for His enemies. God redeems on the basis of personal suffering and having substituted Himself to be punished instead of His enemies. He forgives by the very one whom men sought to destroy, the One made to endure the most horrible sufferings ever laid upon a human being. He blesses by faith in the blood atonement and the death of an innocent Person. Man would have punished the guilty and satisfied justice; but God punished the innocent to justify the guilty. In fact the whole program of reconciling enemies of God is on such a high lever that man could never have thought of it, let alone planned it.

These Scripture have nothing what so ever to do with the wrong statement that says that God has no form, no image, and the facts that He is beyond human reasoning simply because of who He is, and how He always has and always will handle things very differently to men.     

 

 

 

[Steve_S]

1 minute ago, HAZARD said:

All these Scriptures teach is this, This is how His ways and thoughts are higher than ours ever were or can be,. . . .  in;

In pardon. Men never would have planned pardon for their enemies, as God did. Men seek revenge on all such and harbour malice and untold hatred, whereas God planned redemption and untold glories for His enemies (John 3:16; Romans 5:8).

In Number of offences, Under favourable and special circumstances men forgive a few times, but  they are prone not to forgive after repeated offences. God forgives freely many times and as completely and lovingly the last time as the first (Matt. 12;31; 18:21-22; 1 john 1:9).

"In kinds of offenses. Men usually limit themselves as to what kind of offences they will forgive, but God has o qualifications on this point, except the offence of rejecting the only means of help He can offer (Matt. 12:31-32).

In the degree of offenses. Men will forgive if an offense is small enough not to be of any  great injury to them; but God will forgive the greatest and most aggravated offense against Him (Isa. 53: John 3:16).

In mode of pardon. Men may be willing to forgive if it does not cost them much, and they can see that such is to their advantage; but God gave the most precious gift of heaven that He might have  a basis of forgiveness for His enemies. God redeems on the basis of personal suffering and having substituted Himself to be punished instead of His enemies. He forgives by the very one whom men sought to destroy, the One made to endure the most horrible sufferings ever laid upon a human being. He blesses by faith in the blood atonement and the death of an innocent Person. Man would have punished the guilty and satisfied justice; but God punished the innocent to justify the guilty. In fact the whole program of reconciling enemies of God is on such a high lever that man could never have thought of it, let alone planned it.

These Scripture have nothing what so ever to do with the wrong statement that says that God has no form, no image, and the facts that He is beyond human reasoning simply because of who He is, and how He always has and always will handle things very differently to men.     

 

 

 

I was simply answering a question I saw you pose in this thread. Also:

Rom 11:33  Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 

I simply disagree with you on these points. It is a pretty significant recurring theme throughout the bible that God is Omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Being as how these are traits of God that humanity doesn't have (or even close), it is pretty obvious, when taking the entire counsel of the scripture into account, that God is certainly not able to be totally understood from a man's perspective. Even paul above here says that His judgements are "unsearchable" and His ways are "past finding out." I don't know how one could wedge that verse into some theology that denies God's absolute omniscience.

[HAZARD]

14 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

I was simply answering a question I saw you pose in this thread. Also:

Rom 11:33  Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 

I simply disagree with you on these points. It is a pretty significant recurring theme throughout the bible that God is Omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Being as how these are traits of God that humanity doesn't have (or even close), it is pretty obvious, when taking the entire counsel of the scripture into account, that God is certainly not able to be totally understood from a man's perspective. Even paul above here says that His judgements are "unsearchable" and His ways are "past finding out." I don't know how one could wedge that verse into some theology that denies God's absolute omniscience.

Ok and that's fine, we can disagree. The words Omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent are mentioned in Scripture but people immediately believe what the words convey without actually looking up every Scripture on the biblical meaning of the words in their correct context and where they are used. many Scriptures, in fact hundreds outline just who God is, what He can and cannot do, and the fact that He has a spirit body like our physical body, and we know this because He made us in His Image and Likeness.

I'll post these explanations again.

OMNISCIENCE OF God.

There is no excuse for not believing what He says about Himself. There are over 20,000 references about Him, stating in almost infinite detail what He is like, what He can do and cannot do, and what He has done and yet plans to do. We can magnify God best by believing and teaching everything the Bible says about Him. We can have a comprehensive knowledge of God from these many references if we will but believe what they say, and stop making everything God says about Himself a lie.

Men have spiritualised and changed so many statements about God in Scripture and by what they think, that they have nullified the true meaning of the Bible revelation of Him. Why not believe what God says about Himself in the same literal sense in which we understand the same kind of language when it is used of anyone else? Why not believe that God means what He says about Himself? He should know more about Himself than any man. Would it not be easier to believe what He does say about Himself that to believe what he does not say? if God did not mean what He said of Himself, then why did He say such things? Why should it be the unpardonable sin to believe the Bible on what God says about Himself? Regarding God's omniscience, The Bible makes many simple statements that limits God's knowledge. There would be no sense to these many passages if we do not believe them literally. There also is no meaning to them if we make or take them figuratively. There was no object in God saying such things about Himself if they were UNTRUE.

God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of man as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18: 21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 21:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Romans 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11;1; 12:1; Zech.1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them.

 

 

OMNIPRESENCE OF GOD.

God is not a universal nothingness floating around in nowhere.  He is not impersonal, immaterial, intangible, an unreal being. God is not a universal mind as some suggest, soul, spirit, conscience. goodness, principle, an abstract power or force filling the whole of space and solid matter, as false cults teach. God is not Omni-body; that is, His body is not everywhere at all places at the same time. He is just as visible, tangible, and material as the bodies of all other spirit beings. Even resurrected bodies of flesh and bone saints are called "spiritual" (1 Cor. 15:44), so spiritual bodies are of materialised, spiritualized substance, something we know nothing about, as far as experience is concerned, at the present time. Further more, the soul and spirit or the inner man is just as spiritual as God and His angels. The inner man out of His body, which is the outer man, is a spiritual body itself and has been seen with bodily parts corresponding with those of the outer man. The inner man or spiritual part of one person, after leaving the physical body, has been seen by another such spiritual part, as being fully conscious, capable of wearing cloths, and being carried by other spirits beings into material places of either rest and comfort or torments (Luke 16:19-31; Eph. 4:8; Heb. 12:22-23; Rev. 6:9-11).

Each member of the Godhead has His own personal spirit body, His own soul with all the soul feelings of other beings, His own personal spirit with all the spirit attributes and powers that other spirits of persons have. This is proved by the bodily presence of God to men.  Angels and all other kinds of spirits have also been seen with the natural eyes of men. The only difference between men and spirits is that men have earthly, "flesh and bone" bodies whereas spirit being have spirit bodies which are not mortal and fleshy like the bodies of men.

Spirit beings, including God Himself, cannot be omnipresent in body, for their bodies are of ordinary size and must be at one place at a time, in the same way that bodies of men are always localized, being in one place at a time. God, angels, and other spirit beings go from place to place bodily as men do; but their presence can be any place in the universe, wherever there are other persons who also have the sense of presence enough to feel the presence of others regardless of bodily distance between them. Christ is a true example of what we mean by omnipresence. He said, "Where two or three are gathered  together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20).

In what sense is He in the midst of so many daily gatherings world wide? This could not mean that He is bodily present, for His body is in Heaven seated at the right hand of God as Scriptures declare (Psa. 110:1, 5; mark 16:19; Col. 3;1; Heb. 1;3: etc.)

God personally dwells in Heaven, not everywhere. Jesus addressed His Father and referred to Him as being in Heaven, EIGHTEEN TIMES Jesus said, Father which is in Heaven" (Matt. 5:16, 45, 48; 6:1-9; 7:11, 21, etc.). Shall we conclude that Jesus did not know what He was talking about? Not one time does one Scripture refer to God as being bodily everywhere. God is Omni-present but not Omni-body, that is He presence can be felt by moral agents who are everywhere, but His body cannot be seen by them everyplace at the same time. God has a body and goes from place to place like anybody else.

Presence is governed by relationship, not by bodily sight. When the body of anyone is not literally present, one cannot say that it is present. The presence of two persons may be felt though thousands of miles may separate them bodily. I such a case presence consists of union, relationship, memory, acquaintance, and association to the same end in life. The closer tow persons are to each other in any relationship, the more they feel each others presence in the thought life. So it is with God. God dwells in Heaven and persons on Earth that know Him and are in union with Him is spirit can feel His presence in their lives regardless of where they are on the Earth. This is what is meant by statements men use to prove that God personally fills the whole of space and matter. In Ps. 139:7 the paslmist said ,"whither shall I go from the spirit? Or whither shall I fell from they presence?" God said to Jeremiah, "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" (Jer. 23:23-24). Paul said, "In Him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:27-28).

We must understand all like passages, as teaching the omnipresence of God, but not omnibody of God. While I write I feel the presence of my wife and children who are many mile away at this time. They are alwaysin my thoughts, my plans, my life, and all that I do. I do nothing without them, yet they are far away. I am designing a new home for them to move into. I plan for them. I see them in their new home. I experience the thrill of having them with me. They are here with me in spirit and presence, planning with me, and we are working together to the same end in life. This presence is constant, though distance separates bodily at times. I don't feel the presence of other families I have never met and to which there is no union what so ever.

Man has the same faculty that God has to make his presence felt by others, only it is on a finite scale. God's attributes of presence is infinite, but it works literally on the same principle as that of man. It is governed by relationship and knowledge as well as bodily sight. men who do not know God seldom if ever feel His presence. Men can worship God at any time and place and their union with God in spirit will make the presence of God real. The greater the knowledge of God and the consecration to Him, the greater His presence is felt. In this sense Jesus Himself, who has a flesh and bone body and who is local in body - one place at a time, is with all men everywhere even to the end of the age (Matt. 28:19-20). In this same sense Paul was with the Corinthians in spirit when they delivered the fornicator to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (1 Cor. 5:1-8). In this sense Paul and other believers dwelled in each other regardless of bodily distance from each other (2 Cor. 7:3; Phil. 1:7). We know that the personal bodyof Christ, or those of believers, arenot omnipresent when they are in the lives of others in spirit presence, so the same thing is true of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

OMNIPOTENCE OF GOD.

 And what about people saying GOD IS OMNNIPOTENT, HE CAN DO ANYTHING and I have been told in the past that if I don't agree with this, I'm a heretic. To that I reply, well there several  things God cannot do, here's a few.
1, He cannot lie, (Tit. 1:2).
2. God cannot deny Himself or acts contrary to His own eternal truth (2 Tim 2:13).
3. Have respect of persons (Rom. 2:11; Col. 3:25; 2 Pet. 1:17).
4. Save a soul apart from faith and grace in Christ (Rom. 3:25; Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:8-9).
5. Bless men contrary to faith in His Word (Heb. 11"6; Jas. 1:5-8; Jn. 15:7).
6. God cannot curse men who meet His conditions (Mk. 1:15; 16:16; Lk. 13:1-5; Jn. 1:9).
7. Change His eternal plan (Acts 15:18; Eph. 2:7; 3:11).
8. God cannot save rebels who persist in rebellion, refusing to meet His terms (Pr. 1;22-33; 29:1).
9. God cannot be tempted to do evil or tempt man with evil (Jas. 1:13-15).
10. God cannot forgive unconfessed sin (Lk. 13:1-5; 1 Jn. 1:9)
11. God cannot keep one saved who turns back to sin and lives in rebellion, thereby refuting once saved always saved (Gen.2:17; Ezek. 3:17-21; 18:4-24; 33:7-16; Mk. 7:19-21; Rom. 1:21-32;; 6:16-23; 8:12-13; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7-8; Col. 3:5-10).
God limits Himself, according to His own revelation of Himself, along other lines whether by nature or by choice in not always stated. God's compassion and love can be considered infinite and all comprehensive, yet He naturally has to limit the exercise of His love  to those that will not conform to His plan (Ex. 20:5-6; John 3:16-180. God has to punish people whom He one time had compassion for. His faithfulness can also be spokenof a infinite, but He must limit it according to His plan for those who merit it (Ex. 32:7-14; 30-35).
 

[Willa]

On June 3, 2016 at 5:28 PM, Willa said:

Jer 23:23  "Am I a God near at hand," says the LORD, "And not a God afar off?

Jer 23:24  Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?" says the LORD; "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD.

God is omnipresent--everywhere at once.  He cannot do that if He is confined to a body.  That is why Jesus said that it is better that He go away and send back the Holy Spirit Who can be with each one of us and dwell in us.  Jesus can't do that physically but can dwell in us by His Holy Spirit.  

Remember the the the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father, and Jesus is in the Holy Spirit--they are a part of each other and yet separate Beings.  One God. ,

Green's LITV. 1 TIM 6: 14v-16  until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 who in His own time will reveal the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 the only One having immortality, living in light that cannot be approached, whom no one of men saw, nor can see; to whom be honor and everlasting might. Amen.  

John 1:18  No-one has seen God at any time.  

Exo 33:20  But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."

1Jn 1:5  This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

God the Father is incomprehensible to mankind.  That is why He sent Jesus to demonstrate the Father to us.  All He said and did was of His Father.  

To me it is demeaning to reduce our Father God to the form of humanity.  He is present everywhere, all knowing, all powerful designer of the universe.  He is light.

I know that this runs contrary to the opinions of the OP and other posters here, but it is Scripture.  Please don't reply with another page of scripture and arguments.  I have read them all but don't agree.  

So I didn't finish the page of arguments since your disregarded my request.   Do you have the authority to teach on Worthy?  Writing a tome such as you did gives the impression that you do.  Just because you posted the thread does not give you the authority to teach.

Jesus left His position and took on the form of a man.  He is the only One that I believe has had a human body and now has taken on a spiritual body.  I am entitled to my opinion and you need to respect it as I need to respect yours.  That does not mean I have to agree.

[Guest]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 3:19 PM, HAZARD said:

Correct, God's angels told God that Sodom was going down the tubes and so God decided to go and see for Himself if it was so, and as He said, then He would know for sure before he destroyed Sodom.

Now if God talking about Himself like this offends some people's shallow, simplistic, backwoods, approach to the Bible.  I guess that is something that can't be fixed.

Luke 8:12, "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."

God does not personally take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms throughout the universe. His angels help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them. God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all acts and events from all eternity past. Several times God, Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21)

God sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as any head of any other business  would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in (Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12;1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:13; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6. 8-9, 16).

I don't think it was God's angels per se...Rather the blood of the innocent slain crying out from the ground.....................

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Hi Ezra,

I am far from being unwilling to accept truth.

Can you please show me ONE Scripture where God says in Scripture that He is beyond human reasoning?

CAN ANY MAN FATHOM GOD?

Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? (Job 11:7)

In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. (Job 12:10)

Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high. (Job 21:22)

Is not God in the height of heaven? and behold the height of the stars, how high they are! And thou sayest, How doth God know? can he judge through the dark cloud? (Job 22:12,13)

[Kan]

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Hi Ezra,

I am far from being unwilling to accept truth.

Can you please show me ONE Scripture where God says in Scripture that He is beyond human reasoning?

There are some things about God which are not beyond human reasoning, and there are some things which are beyond our capabilities to know.

Job 11:7,8 "Canst thou by searching find out God?...what can you know?" One of hundreds of texts with the same message, that God is unsearchable and incomprehensible.

Col 1:15 "the invisible God..."

"No one has seen the Father, except the Son." No one can see God as He is, except one equal with Him.

John 14:17, "...the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot accept because they see Him not..."

There are no texts which suggest that God is without form, but in the second law of God, it forbids making any image whatsoever of God, and the grounds for that, God said to Moses "Ye saw no form...on Mt Sinai."

They only saw the sapphire pavement under His feet and nothing else, and that was considered "seeing the Lord God."

There are many reasons for not making an image, the most obvious is idolatry, and that is why the Bible gives the features of God such as His hand, in the moral and spiritual sense, and not in the physical sense of an attribute.

For eg, He says that He hates the smell of their sacrifices, this does not mean that God smells the altar, but that the offering is senseless and meaningless because of the ritualistic nature of their offerings, instead of heartfelt repentance and gratitude.