A fence-sitter finally jumps off

[ENOCH2010]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

If you say so. But you then need to explain how there was MUCH PEOPLE IN HEAVEN in Revelation 19, how we are dressed in white linen in Rev. 19, ride white horses back with Jesus in Rev. 19, and defeat the Beast in Rev. 19.

 

God Bless brother. The Church and Israel are two different brides, just like Rachael and Leah.

The much people with the Lord have been dying for the past 2000 years. Now point me to the scripture that speaks of the pre-trib resurrection.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

⁵ But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. ( The last part of this verse is speaking about verse 4. not verse 5. )

Huh? This makes no sense. Where are the pretrib saints? All the saints in Rev 20:4 have come through the trib. I guess the pretrib saints are not part of those who: sit on thrones, have the power of judgement, are blessed and holy, are priests of God, and reign for a millennia.

Rev 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After all, by pretrib reckoning, the secretly raptured saints are not beheaded, had no opportunity to refuse to worship the beast, or the image of the beast, nor refuse the mark of the beast. Since this is true, no pretrib saint will be reigning with Christ for 1000 years. Apparently this also leaves out 'those who are alive and remain' at the gathering as they are not resurrected. But I'm not dogmatic about that.

Lets look at at Rev 19. The armies of heaven come with Jesus. Where is the scriptural link between this army and pretrib saints? Or any saints? Chapter and verse, please.  Scripture says twice that Jesus returns with angels, not changed mankind form the earth. 

Matt 24:30-31 shows Jesus return with angels only. The angels are sent to gather the elect at the time of the sign of the coming of the Son of Man.

Matt 25:31 says Jesus returns in glory with the angels, not saints.

Jude 1:14 does not mean pretrib raptured Western Christians. Jesus comes with his 'holy ones' this could be angels and from the verses in Matt it's likely angels.

I don't see in scripture where Jesus returns with pretrib raptured people.

[Last Daze]

12 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The dead in Christ rise first then we which are alive join them in the air, that is the first resurrection spoken about in Rev.20. It happens at the second coming of Christ as described all through out the Bible, no where in the Bible is there another resurrection spoken about for the pre-trib rapture.

The first resurrection also happens on the last day according to John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 which is the day of the Lord per 2 Thess 2:1-2.

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

I think you were more than suggesting.  I wish you would deal with all the very excellent points brought up by several of the members here.   Variously they have all asked, "If the whole 70th week is the wrath of God then why are any believers on earth if they are not appointed to wrath?"  "If the events of the tribulation are God's wrath, or the Wrath of the Lamb, then isn't God pouring out his wrath on his own people?"  Pretrib says this is not possible.

 

Well you can think as you please, that has no bearing on the facts. I, a brother in Christ, told you my understanding/intention, accept it or don't.  I will not quibble on trivial trivialities. The facts are again in Revelation the Angels showed John things that Jesus wanted Revealed. I understand that the Angels are Gods "ministers/workers" and I think Paul was taught the things of God by Angels, you can disagree, that is what makes the world go round. I accept your belief as just that and will not cast aspersions on your beliefs.

Once again, I have answered this many times already. The five foolish virgins were "locked out". When Jesus Raptures the Church, people will still get saved, by asking Jesus to be their Lord and Savior, but they will be on earth for the Tribulation. Timing matters. The Wrath is not meant for Gods people, God wanted all to be in Christ when Jesus shouted for them to come up, but they were not ready. That is fairly straightforward. And the Wrath of God is only about 3 1/2 years, not 7, the Anti-Christ is possessed by Satan at the midway point.

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

I would never go back in time to review the feast and holidays of Jewish tradition, and even those appointed feasts given to the Jews by the Father. I simply could not bring myself to make any connection between the old covenant as an explanation, precursor, omen or prophetic truth of the end of the age, the return of Jesus or the Kingdom age. That's the past. It's over. Jesus is here and everything is made new. We don't plow and look back.  If any one of the apostles said to reference the Jewish traditions or the God ordained holidays, or if Jesus had told the disciples to remember the old ways and learn from them as a guide to the future, then I would do the same. But none of them did. So I will not look there. 

 

The Apostles all used the Old Testament. The facts that the Feast show the exact intention/symmetry of God with two brides is a clue, just like Daniel is a clue to the end times. I understand, most people have preconceived ideas though. 

 

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Hebrews 8:13 English Standard Version  "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

The old ways are done and gone.

The First covenant really didn't pass away, for the first covenant was really the promised seed, which was Jesus Christ. The Law which was 430 years later, was not really the Covenant. The Law passed away, only because it was never intended to be the covenant between man, who needs mercy, and God who gives mercy, it was always intended to be the blood of Jesus Christ. Paul later says as much in Galatians 3. (Of course the Jews believed it was the Covenant, hence Paul when speaking to them had to call it the first covenant.)

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

God Bless

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The much people with the Lord have been dying for the past 2000 years. Now point me to the scripture that speaks of the pre-trib resurrection.

Oh, so the Marriage to the Lamb happens without the Saints on earth ?  Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife (Church) hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.......14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (SAINTS as spoken of in verse 8)

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (us Saints) 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,..........

 

The Church is i Heaven here, before Revelation 20 happens. The Church comes back to earthed dressed in fine, white, linen, as Saints, on white horses, with Jesus, and the Beast/Kings and their Armies are still on earth. Now tell me how this happens without a Rapture ? And Paul speaks of the Rapture, when he say those that are alive and remain, will be change in the twinkling of an eye.

 

1 Corinthians 15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (Rapture is here).

 

God Bless

[ENOCH2010]

3 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Oh, so the Marriage to the Lamb happens without the Saints on earth ?  Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife (Church) hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.......14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (SAINTS as spoken of in verse 8)

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (us Saints) 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,..........

 

The Church is i Heaven here, before Revelation 20 happens. The Church comes back to earthed dressed in fine, white, linen, as Saints, on white horses, with Jesus, and the Beast/Kings and their Armies are still on earth. Now tell me how this happens without a Rapture ? And Paul speaks of the Rapture, when he say those that are alive and remain, will be change in the twinkling of an eye.

 

1 Corinthians 15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (Rapture is here).

 

God Bless

I agree that a rapture happens, BUT not one verse you have you shown places the rapture pre-trib. You say the rapture is pre-trib because a group comes with the Lord at the second coming. You assume this group to be the bride. That my brother is what's wrong with the pre-trib doctrine, it is based on assumptions and wishes. Please show me the pre-trib resurrection that 1 Cor. 15 is talking about. I say the rapture is at the second coming when the first resurrection happens. The Bible tells us when the first resurrection happens, you are saying there is a resurrection/rapture before the tribulation, please show me the Bible verse to prove that.  

[Revelation Man]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Huh? This makes no sense. Where are the pretrib saints? All the saints in Rev 20:4 have come through the trib. I guess the pretrib saints are not part of those who: sit on thrones, have the power of judgement, are blessed and holy, are priests of God, and reign for a millennia.

Rev 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What part of verse 4 makes you think ALL Saints in verse 4 came through the tribulation ? There is a big AND between I saw the thrones they sat on and Judgment was given them. AND.... I saw the souls of them who were beheaded. The Saints in Heaven, return with Jesus, and, we have put on immortal, incorruptible bodies, those beheaded stay on earth and serve with Jesus a thousand years. Without any mortal people still on earth, how is going to procreate and have children ? Immortals in heaven will not procreate. The Sadducees were trying to trick Jesus with a question about a woman being married to Seven Brothers....Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her (Matthew 12:19-23) What dis Jesus say ? "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven"  (Meaning we have put on immortal bodies(Matthew 12:25). 
 

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

After all, by pretrib reckoning, the secretly raptured saints are not beheaded, had no opportunity to refuse to worship the beast, or the image of the beast, nor refuse the mark of the beast. Since this is true, no pretrib saint will be reigning with Christ for 1000 years. Apparently this also leaves out 'those who are alive and remain' at the gathering as they are not resurrected. But I'm not dogmatic about that.

 

Again, all Saints do not stay on earth. Just the ones that were beheaded during the tribulation, and those who survived. They very well might be given immortal bodies and rule the earth with Jesus, while the survivors procreate, either way, only the ones who missed the Rapture stay on earth to rule with Jesus.

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Lets look at at Rev 19. The armies of heaven come with Jesus. Where is the scriptural link between this army and pretrib saints? Or any saints? Chapter and verse, please.  Scripture says twice that Jesus returns with angels, not changed mankind form the earth. 

 

Sure thing...........Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen IS THE RIGHTEOUSNES OF THE SAINTS.jjjjj 

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; (Jesus)...................................14 And the ARMIES which were IN HEAVEN followed him upon white horses, clothed in FINE LINEN, WHITE and CLEAN. ( The Fine linen verse 8 says is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the SAINTS. Amen )

 

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Matt 24:30-31 shows Jesus return with angels only. The angels are sent to gather the elect at the time of the sign of the coming of the Son of Man.

Matt 25:31 says Jesus returns in glory with the angels, not saints.

Jude 1:14 does not mean pretrib raptured Western Christians. Jesus comes with his 'holy ones' this could be angels and from the verses in Matt it's likely angels.

I don't see in scripture where Jesus returns with pretrib raptured people.

Lets look at Matthew 24:30-31 in full........

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ( The tribes of earth that sees Jesus coming are those people not raptured, of course. )

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

((( Jesus sends his Angels to gather the ELECT FROM WHERE ? The four corners of HEAVEN or from ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. Not from earth, but from where we have been at for Seven Years, Heaven. Amen.

 

God Bless

[Endtime_Survivors]

On 6/10/2016 at 0:02 PM, OakWood said:

However, I have now jumped off the fence and I am leaning towards the side of Post-Trib - pre-Wrath.

Glad to hear it. 

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Yet for such an important event Jesus barely mentions it, if he actually mentions it at all.....

Yeah he mentions it in Matthew 24, but it's interesting in that he says, "immediately after the tribulation of 'those days'" (i.e. the Great Tribulation such as never was before nor ever will be).

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So let me get this straight, Jesus comes back to take the faithful away to safety and then goes away again, but he returns again a third time. It's not even a secret rapture because he comes with a shout and a 'trumpet'.

I think they'd argue that the "secret rapture" isn't technically a return of Jesus, but more so that the saints go to Jesus and then later, after the tribulation and wrath he comes back down for the battle of Armageddon and that will be the 2nd coming. It's still inconsistent with what the scriptures teach, though.

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4/ Pre-Tribbers place great emphasis on the Church not being mentioned in future prophecy as if this somehow indicates that Christians are no longer around during the Tribulation.

This one bothers me as well, because it's an indication of a hard hearted spirit in that the church can only be recognized by that one word.  Revelation 11:2 says the "Holy city will be tread underfoot for 42 months" which just happens to coincide with references to the AC fighting against the saints for 42 months (from Daniel).  We understand that God does not live in building made with hands and that we, the believers are the temple of God. Of course the church is still there.

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Now unless God is in the act of offering salvation to non-believers, we have to assume that those who are beheaded for refusing to take the mark of the Beast are actually Christians. Pre-Tribbers get round this by claiming that these people are new believers who became believers after the rapture, but with no Christians around to witness to them and no Holy Spirit to convict them, how can they ever become believers? It just doesn't ring true.

Good assessment.

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6/ Why would God rescue Christians from the wrath of evil when he has never done this before? Why do today's Christians believe that they are so special?

A lot of people confuse tribulation and wrath.  We all experience tribulation; it's meant to help us grow.  But wrath is specifically directed at the enemies of God.

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You could even argue that Noah wasn't rescued from the Flood at all, he simply sailed through it with God's protection but not without any struggle at all.. Yet pre-Tribbers believe that we'll all be simply whisked to safety.

Excellent point.  Noah wasn't miraculously taken out of danger.  He was only saved because he listened to God and worked hard.

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7/ Some pre-Tribbers claim that the reason they are not interested in knowing the identity of the anti-Christ is because they won't be there. Their lack of interest in studying the Great Tribulation is caused by their belief that it doesn't apply to them.

I think this is another fantastic point, even more so for the Mark of the Beast.  The reasoning I've heard so far goes like this, "I believe I won't be around for the Mark; I'll be raptured.  That means if a time comes that I won't be able to buy/sell without some kind of "mark" on my hand (or forehead) then there won't be any problem. It obviously can't be the Mark since I will be raptured before that happens".

I think this is at least one of the reasonings that will lead many, many Christians to taking the Mark.

Anyway, I enjoyed reading your post.  Thanks for sharing those thoughts.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Well you can think as you please, that has no bearing on the facts. I, a brother in Christ, told you my understanding/intention, accept it or don't.  I will not quibble on trivial trivialities. The facts are again in Revelation the Angels showed John things that Jesus wanted Revealed. I understand that the Angels are Gods "ministers/workers" and I think Paul was taught the things of God by Angels, you can disagree, that is what makes the world go round. I accept your belief as just that and will not cast aspersions on your beliefs.

That's just it. I am not the person who cares about personal belief when it comes to scripture. To have personal beliefs that guide your reality is appropriate. But when it comes to God's word there is only one reality, one perspective, and one universal view. And that ultimate truth belongs to the Father only.  This is what we as believers are to search for; God's  truth. There is only one right answer to every scriptural concept and truth. 

Once again, I have answered this many times already. The five foolish virgins were "locked out". When Jesus Raptures the Church, people will still get saved, by asking Jesus to be their Lord and Savior, but they will be on earth for the Tribulation. Timing matters. The Wrath is not meant for Gods people, God wanted all to be in Christ when Jesus shouted for them to come up, but they were not ready. That is fairly straightforward. And the Wrath of God is only about 3 1/2 years, not 7, the Anti-Christ is possessed by Satan at the midway point.

The Apostles all used the Old Testament. The facts that the Feast show the exact intention/symmetry of God with two brides is a clue, just like Daniel is a clue to the end times. I understand, most people have preconceived ideas though. 

If one were to read Hebrews they would see that all the old ways are counted as meaningless now that Christ is come. Everything in the OT pointed to Jesus and now he is here and the mysteries are revealed. There is no need to look back as everything in the past is now fulfilled in Christ.  It's your hope there are two brides, but the NT says nothing about this. We see one bride of Christ, not two.

The First covenant really didn't pass away, for the first covenant was really the promised seed, which was Jesus Christ. The Law which was 430 years later, was not really the Covenant. The Law passed away, only because it was never intended to be the covenant between man, who needs mercy, and God who gives mercy, it was always intended to be the blood of Jesus Christ. Paul later says as much in Galatians 3. (Of course the Jews believed it was the Covenant, hence Paul when speaking to them had to call it the first covenant.)

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I think you're making my point for me. But to say the first covenant didn't really pass away is unbiblical, even you posted as much above. 

Hebrews 1:13 "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

Further in Hebrews:

Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

⁹ Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

¹⁰ Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

¹¹ But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

All things associated with the first covenant are carnal where Jesus is truth and Spirit. Jesus is all we need and all we should look to, not to old ways that have served their purpose and been cast aside.

And this is the trouble with pre trib. Clear scripture means very little to the doctrine. It's more about emotion than logic and/or distraction when challenged. For instance several have posted a very good question which I will iterate:

You said above, " The Wrath is not meant for Gods people, God wanted all to be in Christ when Jesus shouted for them to come up, but they were not ready. That is fairly straightforward. And the Wrath of God is only about 3 1/2 years,"

: If the wrath of God lasts 3.5 years I would assume you are thinking its the 42 months after the A of D right to the end of the week. You have also acknowledged that there are saints that are alive at this time.

If the saints are not appointed to wrath then how can there be saints on earth during the wrath of God?  

Either there are no saints on earth during God's wrath, or the 42 months you speak of is not the wrath of God, or the saints that come to Christ during the 42 months are not God's people.

The problem is pretrib equates tribulation with wrath. There are not equivalent. Wrath is not mentioned in connection with the end of the age until the revealing of Jesus; which follows the signs of His coming: which comes at the 6th seal; which in order is the last circumstance to be unleashed upon the earth. Whereas 'great tribulation' is on the earth immediately following the A of D. The terms are not interchangeable, to wit: 3709, orge: wrath. 2347, thlipsis: tribulation.  

In Matt 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation.....21For then shall be great tribulation, 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:  This is where wrath begins as the signs of the 6th seal are the same in Rev 6:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Then the people who are left say, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

What part of verse 4 makes you think ALL Saints in verse 4 came through the tribulation ? There is a big AND between I saw the thrones they sat on and Judgment was given them. AND.... I saw the souls of them who were beheaded. The Saints in Heaven, return with Jesus, and, we have put on immortal, incorruptible bodies, those beheaded stay on earth and serve with Jesus a thousand years. Without any mortal people still on earth, how is going to procreate and have children ? Immortals in heaven will not procreate. The Sadducees were trying to trick Jesus with a question about a woman being married to Seven Brothers....Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her (Matthew 12:19-23) What dis Jesus say ? "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven"  (Meaning we have put on immortal bodies(Matthew 12:25). 
 

Again, all Saints do not stay on earth. Just the ones that were beheaded during the tribulation, and those who survived. They very well might be given immortal bodies and rule the earth with Jesus, while the survivors procreate, either way, only the ones who missed the Rapture stay on earth to rule with Jesus.

Sure thing...........Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen IS THE RIGHTEOUSNES OF THE SAINTS.jjjjj 

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; (Jesus)...................................14 And the ARMIES which were IN HEAVEN followed him upon white horses, clothed in FINE LINEN, WHITE and CLEAN. ( The Fine linen verse 8 says is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the SAINTS. Amen )

 

Lets look at Matthew 24:30-31 in full........

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ( The tribes of earth that sees Jesus coming are those people not raptured, of course. )

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

((( Jesus sends his Angels to gather the ELECT FROM WHERE ? The four corners of HEAVEN or from ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. Not from earth, but from where we have been at for Seven Years, Heaven. Amen.

 

God Bless

What part of verse 4 makes you think ALL Saints in verse 4 came through the tribulation ? There is a big AND between I saw the thrones they sat on and Judgment was given them. AND.... I saw the souls of them who were beheaded. The Saints in Heaven, return with Jesus, and, we have put on immortal, incorruptible bodies, those beheaded stay on earth and serve with Jesus a thousand years. Without any mortal people still on earth, how is going to procreate and have children ? Immortals in heaven will not procreate. The Sadducees were trying to trick Jesus with a question about a woman being married to Seven Brothers....Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her (Matthew 12:19-23) What dis Jesus say ? "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven"  (Meaning we have put on immortal bodies(Matthew 12:25). 

Now I didn't say that. All the saints pictured in Rev 20:4 came through the trib, is what I said. The point I'm making here is: If these are the saints that came out of tribulation, and they are given all these great rewards, where are the pretrib saints? Don't they get these rewards? Apparently not as these trib saints got the victory. No where do we see in Revelation, or in the NT, a group that was so pure and faithful they were taken off the earth to heaven before the beginning of the 70th week. Since God lauds all who walk righteously and keep all His ways during their life, this very special group should merit at least a mention, if not half a chapter.  I know I'm not supposed to do this cause some don't like it but I have to wonder about your mindset. Is it just that you have been taught pertrib and cannot let go or is it a comprehension thing?  There is no mention in this passage about anyone living on earth and procreating. Neither does repopulating the earth have anything to do with point I was making.  All the saints in the passage above live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. Let me help you. 'And' is a conjunction. It means "also", "in addition" . A conjunction joins thoughts relating a concept. So in the above passage when we see 'and', it means John saw all these related things at the same time.  Therefore the souls that were beheaded, refused the mark, refused to worship the beast and his image, are the ones who are sitting on the thrones and reigning with Jesus for 1000 years. 

About repopulating the earth:

I'm sure this has nothing to do with those who died for their faith in God during the reign of the beast. Those people are resurrected and glorified and hence, do not procreate. The bible indicates that people are left alive on the earth that were not gathered and yet survived the wrath of God. I'm looking for the scripture that speaks to this. In any case it cannot be believers in Jesus as they were all either resurrected or taken alive just before the wrath of God. Obviously anyone who survived the wrath of God is going to believe in God after witnessing the return of Jesus; but those converted only after and so were not part of the elect gathered at the Return of Jesus just before the wrath of God.
 

Again, all Saints do not stay on earth. Just the ones that were beheaded during the tribulation, and those who survived. They very well might be given immortal bodies and rule the earth with Jesus, while the survivors procreate, either way, only the ones who missed the Rapture stay on earth to rule with Jesus.

Well, no. The beheaded ones are likely the ones we see under the throne in the 5th seal. Their manner of death is important as it is mentioned specifically. Just like in Rev 20 where one manner of death is mentioned. That's an easy connection to make and it's very sound logically and biblically. Where as leaving those who died on earth for their testimony in Jesus, and that same group having no part in, "the dead are raised first, before those who are alive and remain' is unsound biblically. And again the logic and or comprehension here is incorrect. We are not appointed to wrath. You say as much. How is it then that saved people are going through the wrath of God when the bible says that will not happen? It cannot be both ways.

Sure thing...........Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen IS THE RIGHTEOUSNES OF THE SAINTS.jjjjj 

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; (Jesus)...................................14 And the ARMIES which were IN HEAVEN followed him upon white horses, clothed in FINE LINEN, WHITE and CLEAN. ( The Fine linen verse 8 says is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the SAINTS. Amen )

Yes. But that does not answer the question. Fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. But it's a general symbol of purity. Jesus, God, the angels, the elders are are clothed in righteousness and so are dressed in fine linen, clean and white.  Here we see the wife made ready. There has been no marriage as yet, that is soon to come. Shortly thereafter we see the armies follow Jesus to earth. Are you saying the wife to be suddenly changed to an army, or armies? So Jesus is taking is not yet wife to battle? I don't see the link. Scripture also contradicts this in Rev 21 where we see the bride coming from heaven. Now it's true this is a city in Rev 21 and in Rev 19 we see a wife made ready, but it seems the idea has merit. Plus. this puts the marriage supper after the wrath of God is complete and not many years before. The question of scriptural linkage remains. Perhaps you could at least show a precedent where saints are told to array themselves for battle and join the enemy. I don't see one.

Lets look at Matthew 24:30-31 in full........

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ( The tribes of earth that sees Jesus coming are those people not raptured, of course. )

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

((( Jesus sends his Angels to gather the ELECT FROM WHERE ? The four corners of HEAVEN or from ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. Not from earth, but from where we have been at for Seven Years, Heaven. Amen.

Not from the earth? Then where did the pretrib saints come from originally?  Since this is the only gathering specified how did the pretrib saints get ot heaven in the first place. Do you understand the difference between a specified event and one that is not specified?  You keep saying the pretrib saints are already in heaven but where is this spelled out? Surely a rigidly faithful and God fearing group representing such total purity would merit a mention in scripture. Why is it that an event with catastrophic consequences for the earth, as terrible as any in the seal, trumpets or bowls, is not mentioned?  And pretrib should never reference the gathering of the elect from Matt 24 as this puts the only specified gathering after 'great tribulation'.

Another problem with this position. You leave out the entire idea of the passage.  Jesus comes to earth. He is not in heaven at this point. So any gathering is earthly not heavenly. This next point is where pretrib suspends logic. If, as you say, Jesus returns with the pretrib saints as the great army clothed in linen, white and clean, they are already with Him and there is no need to gather them. They have already been gathered to battle and are riding horses with Jesus, as you keep saying. So how can the angels gather that which has no need to be gathered?

Also, it's probable that 'from one end of heaven to the other' is a simple figure of speech meaning 'breadth'. It's not axiomatic the phrase means 'in heaven' or 'from heaven'. It could just as easily denote 'under heaven' or 'under the the whole heavens'. Which is the best view as the setting is earth and the air above the earth.

 

 

God Bless