Only for those with eyes to see and ears to hear

[angels4u]

6 minutes ago, post said:

this is as i pointed out in Hebrews. endure in the confidence of the belief in Christ's faithfulness to forgive you. in His faithfulness to transform you by the Spirit He sealed you with. endure in the faith -- and the scripture also says, "if we are faithless, He remains faithful - for He cannot deny Himself" -- what does this mean? 
what does it mean, "He cannot deny Himself" ? ((2 Timothy 2:13))

you who have been appointed for eternal life, have been sealed by the Holy Spirit when you heard and believed. He knows His own sheep. He bought them, and He will lose none of them. 
the alternative is that He will lose some of His sheep - or that they are not His sheep at all, but He will buy the ones later that stick around. that you were not sealed at all, but that you were just given a second shot at keeping a law that you could never keep in the first place. the alternative is that He is not necessarily faithful to the promise you believed: that He would bless you and keep you and save you and redeem you and transform you and hold you and lead you into His light. the alternative is that He will not finish the work that HE began -- that you are the author and finisher of your faith. 

but the scripture says, Jesus Christ is the author and the perfecter of our faith. He began the work; endure in the faith that He will complete it also. 
it never says, "restore to us the anxiety of our possibly salvation but possibly not, depends on us" -- it says restore to us the joy of our salvation!

why do we have joy? 
where do you get joy from knowing that you can slip up and He will revoke all the promises He made to you - promises that were never contingent on you establishing your own righteousness? 


 

 

Good point Post:

Quote

but the scripture says, Jesus Christ is the author and the perfecter of our faith. He began the work; endure in the faith that He will complete it also. 
it never says, "restore to us the anxiety of our possibly salvation but possibly not, depends on us" -- it says restore to us the joy of our salvation!

 

We can't have the  joy of Salvation  if we have to fear we can lose  our Salvation , Jesus saves us for al eternity .

We do make Jesus a liar by believing He can't keep us until the end ,we serve a mighty God who is able to save us and will finish what He promised to do~~

Romans8:28

God Works In All Things
27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him,who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

[Guest shiloh357]

37 minutes ago, SIC said:

So are you saying once a person is saved there is no way he/she may lose the salvation irrespective of what he/she does?

What I am saying is that a truly saved person doesn't live in sin, and has no will to live in sin and does not enjoy sin.   None of us are perfect and we all stumble, but that's why we have the grace of God and the blood of Jesus.   Jesus had paid the death penalty for sin.  The authentic believer has no fear of losing salvation because God isn't going to change His mind about saving us.   God doesn't throw us way when we mess up.

[post]

7 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

What I am saying is that a truly saved person doesn't live in sin, and has no will to live in sin and does not enjoy sin.   None of us are perfect and we all stumble, but that's why we have the grace of God and the blood of Jesus.   Jesus had paid the death penalty for sin.  The authentic believer has no fear of losing salvation because God isn't going to change His mind about saving us.   God doesn't throw us way when we mess up.

aye; declared holy for all eternity, by one sacrifice! 

being perfected, not yet having attained. but having a confident hope, an anchor for our souls -- in a thing that is Christ's work, not ours. this finished thing, ongoing

what does this mean? 

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
(1 Corinthians 5:5) 

how can Paul say this if a person's unfaithfulness or life of hedonism can take away his salvation, if that salvation is real? 

[post]

btw @shiloh357, how wonderful it is to talk with you about things that we have sure knowledge of !! 

in Christ, we are all made one, and are of one mind. to me, it is illustrative of how all these other tangential matters of speculation are just so inconsequential, and should be taken so lightly, with all meekness. they are wonderful mysteries, but we speak of them without knowledge. because we are saved by this confident faith in Christ, not in our dim understanding of a bunch of other things too wonderful for us. it gets to be rather obvious when we are speaking by the Spirit, and when we are not really speaking by Spirit, doesn't it? in Christ, we are unified. outside of Him, we meander. 


A friend loves at all times, And a brother is born for adversity.
(Proverbs 17:17) 

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brothers to dwell together in unity!
(Psalm 133:1) 





i'm off to work for the day. 
goodbye for now

[SIC]

So this is what I understand by what all of you have posted.

A genuine believer once saved, has a deep rooted desire to be perfect in Holiness, but being human he fails from time to time. But irrespective of his failure God is faithful and will ensure that he remains in Him.

Is that right?

So well then I don't quite understand how this verse fits in

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

If I'm saved once for all with absolutely no chance of falling away then why should I work out my salvation in fear and trembling?

[angels4u]

36 minutes ago, SIC said:

So this is what I understand by what all of you have posted.

A genuine believer once saved, has a deep rooted desire to be perfect in Holiness, but being human he fails from time to time. But irrespective of his failure God is faithful and will ensure that he remains in Him.

Is that right?

So well then I don't quite understand how this verse fits in

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

If I'm saved once for all with absolutely no chance of falling away then why should I work out my salvation in fear and trembling?

 

 

Sic, why would we want to sin on purpose knowing how high of a prize Jesus paid to save us from our sins? He will give you the Holy Spirit who will convict us of sins , God forgives our sins if we ask for Him for  forgiveness

 

Jesus is our mediator who mediates for us all the time, For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.…

1 John 4:18

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

46 minutes ago, SIC said:

So this is what I understand by what all of you have posted.

A genuine believer once saved, has a deep rooted desire to be perfect in Holiness, but being human he fails from time to time. But irrespective of his failure God is faithful and will ensure that he remains in Him.

Is that right?

So well then I don't quite understand how this verse fits in

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

If I'm saved once for all with absolutely no chance of falling away then why should I work out my salvation in fear and trembling?

Notice what that verse says...   It says "work out" your own salvation.  It doesn't say, "work for"  your salvation.   The phrase "work out"  in the Greek is one word and it means, "to put on display."    It means, to demonstrate your salvation.   We are to live in a way that demonstrates that we are saved to those around us.  He is not saying that we have to work in order to stay saved.  

The verse you are quoting is Phil 2:12 and it is being written to a congregation, not a person.   It is telling them how they are behave with each other and in the Roman community in which they live.   Phillipi was a Roman free city and many Romans came there to retire.  It was a town of very rich and affluent people, albeit  very pagan people.    Paul is writing to the Philippians about living out their salvation as a witness.    So, what Paul is addressing here is obedience, not how to stay saved.   Paul is not warning them about losing salvation.   He is telling them to live out their salvation openly in the face of the unsaved Romans that live with them in that colony.  

He is also telling them to "work out," or live out their salvation in relationship with one another as a Christian community.

So what about "fear and trembling?"  What does that mean?   It is simply stating  that we do not live out our salvation in manner that is casual.  It is not something we take lightly, but rather we do so first and foremost with an attitude of awe before God.  We living out our salvation for His glory.  We should be living out our salvation corporately and individually with a holy sense of wonder before God.

[SIC]

53 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Sic, why would we want to sin on purpose knowing how high of a prize Jesus paid to save us from our sins? He will give you the Holy Spirit who will convict us of sins , God forgives our sins if we ask for Him for  forgiveness

 

Jesus is our mediator who mediates for us all the time, For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.…

1 John 4:18

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

 

 

43 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Notice what that verse says...   It says "work out" your own salvation.  It doesn't say, "work for"  your salvation.   The phrase "work out"  in the Greek is one word and it means, "to put on display."    It means, to demonstrate your salvation.   We are to live in a way that demonstrates that we are saved to those around us.  He is not saying that we have to work in order to stay saved.  

The verse you are quoting is Phil 2:12 and it is being written to a congregation, not a person.   It is telling them how they are behave with each other and in the Roman community in which they live.   Phillipi was a Roman free city and many Romans came there to retire.  It was a town of very rich and affluent people, albeit  very pagan people.    Paul is writing to the Philippians about living out their salvation as a witness.    So, what Paul is addressing here is obedience, not how to stay saved.   Paul is not warning them about losing salvation.   He is telling them to live out their salvation openly in the face of the unsaved Romans that live with them in that colony.  

He is also telling them to "work out," or live out their salvation in relationship with one another as a Christian community.

So what about "fear and trembling?"  What does that mean?   It is simply stating  that we do not live out our salvation in manner that is casual.  It is not something we take lightly, but rather we do so first and foremost with an attitude of awe before God.  We living out our salvation for His glory.  We should be living out our salvation corporately and individually with a holy sense of wonder before God.

All I am saying is God has granted us salvation and we have the freedom in Christ . That doesn't mean that we can take our salvation lightly and hope to be taken up to heaven with no effort on our part. The salvation is granted for free. But we need to put in some effort towards guarding our hearts, minds and members from sin and ensure that we walk in the light with endurance till the very end. We cannot sit back and take our salvation for granted.

Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God's slaves.

This verse to me means that it is quite possible for a person who is saved to use his /her freedom in Christ as a cover up for evil. Which is why Peter is warning against it.  In other words our salvation is never to be taken for granted. We received it for free . Yes. But we need to put in more than a little effort to guard it as a prized possession in tandem with God. If we take it for granted and start using it as a cover up for evil without repenting till the very end. Then God also cannot save us.

 

[angels4u]

Just now, SIC said:

 

All I am saying is God has granted us salvation and we have the freedom in Christ . That doesn't mean that we can take our salvation lightly and hope to be taken up to heaven with no effort on our part. The salvation is granted for free. But we need to put in some effort towards guarding our hearts, minds and members from sin and ensure that we walk in the light with endurance till the very end. We cannot sit back and take our salvation for granted.

Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God's slaves.

This verse to me means that it is quite possible for a person who is saved to use his /her freedom in Christ as a cover up for evil. Which is why Peter is warning against it.  In other words our salvation is never to be taken for granted. We received it for free . Yes. But we need to put in more than a little effort to guard it as a prized possession in tandem with God. If we take it for granted and start using it as a cover up for evil without repenting till the very end. Then God also cannot save us.

 

 

It's just because we don't take salvation and sin  lightly that we trust God for everything He promised and He promised to keep us because He is able~~  we're so thankful for everything He is doing that we don't want to sin (on purpose,of course we do sin  but our heavenly Father will forgive us and  as a rule we do not WANT to sin. As long as we live in this world we will still sin and God will forgive us but we don't take sin lightly and feel very bad about it for it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us~~

John 16:8

When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:

God looks at us as complete in Jesus

Col.2:10

and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

[SIC]

4 minutes ago, angels4u said:

It's just because we don't take salvation and sin  lightly that we trust God for everything He promised and He promised to keep us because He is able~~  we're so thankful for everything He is doing that we don't want to sin (on purpose,of course we do sin  but our heavenly Father will forgive us and  as a rule we do not WANT to sin. As long as we live in this world we will still sin and God will forgive us but we don't take sin lightly and feel very bad about it for it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us~~

John 16:8

When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:

God looks at us as complete in Jesus

Col.2:10

and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

So are you saying there is no possibility of a  permanent falling away?

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

This verse seems to suggest that there is a possibility of a permanent falling away

I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

This verse seems to suggest that holding on to Christ is not going to be exactly a walk in the park