Is there really a rapture?

[enoob57]

God always thru all dispensations keeps a remnant... and those who house The Holy Spirit of God know

Romans 8:16 (KJV)

[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

 

[ENOCH2010]

Wow Oak, that is putting the truth out here for all to see.  Amen and thank you.....

 

[Last Daze]

On 9/12/2016 at 0:09 AM, OakWood said:

Correct. Nobody knows the day or the hour. That doesn't mean there's going to be a pre-Trib rapture.

True.

The timing of the rapture is stated as taking place at the last trumpet on the last day.  People should start with that timing and seek to understand when that happens is if they really want to know.  It certainly doesn't have that "imminent" ring to it.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

As a word test, which I don't favor by the way, "imminent" is, generally, not in Scripture.  Never is it is said to be connected to the Rapture.  So I begin to be dubious.

Between the King James Version, the English Standard Version, the New International Version, and the New American Standard Version of the Bible, only the NASB uses "imminent" to translate the Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek into English - and only one time at that - and it has nothing to do with the Rapture.

2Pe 1:12 Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you. 13 I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.

If the coming of the Lord were "imminent", then what happens to all those believers who lived and died for two millennia?

However, as the Dead in Christ are resurrected first, and then the Rapture of the Elect happens for those "who remain" (1Th 4:17) ~ then the meeting of the Bride and Christ is as close as the end of every believer's life up until the point when Jesus Returns on the Day of the Lord.

And Paul said that would not happen until things which have not yet happened, happen.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

55 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

The timing of the rapture is stated as taking place at the last trumpet on the last day.  People should start with that timing and seek to understand when that happens is if they really want to know.  It certainly doesn't have that "imminent" ring to it.

The Last Trumpet is in 1Co 15:50-51.
It is tied to the raising of the Dead in Christ.

In turn, the Dead in Christ are raised before the Rapture in 1Th 4:16-17.
And that is tied their raising to when Jesus comes on the clouds.

The Son of Man will return on the Day of the Lord on the clouds to gather the Elect in Mt 24:29-31.
And that is tied to happening after the Midpoint Abomination and after the Great Tribulation.

 

You're right Last Daze, it certainly is not "imminent" as being able to happen at any time, but rather, the Bridegroom will tarry, and we will not know when the day or hour of His Arrival will be, even though we wait for Him, expecting Him now that those things have come to pass at some time in the future.

[OakWood]

Want to do something in secret?

Here's some advice: Don't shout about it!

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:16

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Rev 1:7 Behold, HE is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.

You're right Oakwood, no secret about it...

[missmuffet]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Rev 1:7 Behold, HE is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.

You're right Oakwood, no secret about it...

That is the second coming. Very different from the rapture of the Church before the seven year tribulation.

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

[OakWood]

22 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

That is the second coming. Very different from the rapture of the Church before the seven year tribulation.

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

I've got news for you, according to pre-Tribbers it's actually the Third Coming. Even though a Third Coming is completely unscriptural because  Jesus comes back only once!

There is no pre-Trib rapture. The Bible does not say that there is for reasons that I have already given. The pre-Trib doctrine is a lie.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

43 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

That is the second coming. Very different from the rapture of the Church before the seven year tribulation.

No, Rev 1:7 has Jesus coming on the clouds just as He does at your secret Rapture event of 1Th 4:16-17.

Rev 1:7 Behold, HE is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him,
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,
Mt 24: 30 ...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect
..........~ That's ELECT - those God has selected: i.e., BELIEVERS.  Elect is ALWAYS used for believers in the NT when speaking of people.
Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, " Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.
2Th 2:1 ...with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

The second coming - on the Day of the LORD - is when the Rapture happens.