Liberal and Christianity

[LadyKay]

People can't help it if they are insane.

[Ezra]

16 hours ago, LadyKay said:

People can't help it if they are insane.

There is such a thing as self-induced insanity.  That's called delusion.

[Qnts2]

On 7/15/2016 at 0:06 AM, ayin jade said:

1) I never said a democrat couldnt be a Christian. In fact I often chastised those who claim otherwise. Altho not this election. Too tired I guess lol. 

2) He isnt the only candidate to go to the reservations. There have been many in the past who have done so. Sadly, their needs go unaddressed while the more vocal people do get addressed. 

3) I disagree that there is biblical support. The bible tells us to be cheerful givers and to help the poor, not to be forced to pay excessive taxes for the govt to help the poor. 

On Bernie, some of the reservations he visited have never been visited by anyone else running for president. He also visited an Inuit village which had never had a presidential candidate visit.

While the NT says that Christians are to be cheerful givers, there are insufficient born again Christians to actually help all of those in need in the U.S. Plus, Christians are not aware of the poor people in need. Going to the OT, in the Mosaic law, specific tithes were for the poor.  In addition, farmers were to leave corners of crops for the poor, etc

 

When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. (Lev 19:9-10)

When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this. (Dt 24:19-22)

At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. (Dt 14:28-29)

As Christians, we are to freely give, but governments can and must also set laws to provide for the poor which is clear in scripture. The tithe is essentially a tax. So, it is biblical and necessary to set a tax to support the poor, widows and orphans.

[ayin jade]

12 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

On Bernie, some of the reservations he visited have never been visited by anyone else running for president. He also visited an Inuit village which had never had a presidential candidate visit.

While the NT says that Christians are to be cheerful givers, there are insufficient born again Christians to actually help all of those in need in the U.S. Plus, Christians are not aware of the poor people in need. Going to the OT, in the Mosaic law, specific tithes were for the poor.  In addition, farmers were to leave corners of crops for the poor, etc

 

When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. (Lev 19:9-10)

When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this. (Dt 24:19-22)

At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. (Dt 14:28-29)

As Christians, we are to freely give, but governments can and must also set laws to provide for the poor which is clear in scripture. The tithe is essentially a tax. So, it is biblical and necessary to set a tax to support the poor, widows and orphans.

The tithe was a tax in a theocracy. We are not a theocracy. It is not a biblical mandate for a secular govt to provide for the poor. Nor is it expected that Christians pay for the poor through forced giving. Even in your view, we are paying for many who do not fall into the categories above. Those who defraud the system for instance. 

[Qnts2]

17 minutes ago, ayin jade said:

The tithe was a tax in a theocracy. We are not a theocracy. It is not a biblical mandate for a secular govt to provide for the poor. Nor is it expected that Christians pay for the poor through forced giving. Even in your view, we are paying for many who do not fall into the categories above. Those who defraud the system for instance. 

It is not mandated, but if God commanded something, I would say it is a good idea for any government to provide for the poor. Just as any government needs to have laws against murder, even if that government is not a theocracy. A government providing for the poor by taxes is in the bible. 

For a Christian, it is reasonable to support a tax which helps the poor since such a tax is in scripture.

And yes, I do believe there are faults in the system but an imperfect system does not mean we completely eliminate a provision to help those in need. Nor do I believe the system should be so demanding and stringent to demean those who are truly in need, which is the risk of requiring too many hoops people in need must jump through. I have heard that for a person to receive disability assistance, they have to fight against an almost automatic initial rejection.  

[Guest shiloh357]

41 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

On Bernie, some of the reservations he visited have never been visited by anyone else running for president. He also visited an Inuit village which had never had a presidential candidate visit.

While the NT says that Christians are to be cheerful givers, there are insufficient born again Christians to actually help all of those in need in the U.S. Plus, Christians are not aware of the poor people in need. Going to the OT, in the Mosaic law, specific tithes were for the poor.  In addition, farmers were to leave corners of crops for the poor, etc

 

When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. (Lev 19:9-10)

When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this. (Dt 24:19-22)

At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. (Dt 14:28-29)

As Christians, we are to freely give, but governments can and must also set laws to provide for the poor which is clear in scripture. The tithe is essentially a tax. So, it is biblical and necessary to set a tax to support the poor, widows and orphans.

There is a big difference in what you describe and modern liberalism's approach to poverty.  In the Bible, the poor still had to go to the orchards and the fields gather what was left for them.   It was not mailed to them.  They still had to work.   Modern liberalism wants to benefit the free loaders and moochers who simply want to milk the government of benefits without them having to work for what they get.

We have illegal aliens living off of our government and we have a 2nd and 3rd generation welfare recipients who view food stamps and welfare as a permanent source of income.   Liberals may use the "widow and orphan"  as a pretext for their programs, but what they are really doing is playing the sugar daddy to people they want to vote Democrat in the next election.  The best way to do that is to give away goodie bags of all kinds of benefits at the expense of hard working taxpayers.

[Qnts2]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

There is a big difference in what you describe and modern liberalism's approach to poverty.  In the Bible, the poor still had to go to the orchards and the fields gather what was left for them.   It was not mailed to them.  They still had to work.   Modern liberalism wants to benefit the free loaders and moochers who simply want to milk the government of benefits without them having to work for what they get.

We have illegal aliens living off of our government and we have a 2nd and 3rd generation welfare recipients who view food stamps and welfare as a permanent source of income.   Liberals may use the "widow and orphan"  as a pretext for their programs, but what they are really doing is playing the sugar daddy to people they want to vote Democrat in the next election.  The best way to do that is to give away goodie bags of all kinds of benefits at the expense of hard working taxpayers.

I understand my friends who vote Democratic, in that they are concerned about providing for the poor. Unfortunately, your post seems to fight against providing for the poor.

Since most cities do not have fields and orchards within walking distance, so your statement about that is not valid. And what of those who are disabled and unable to glean? And unable to leave their homes? Caring for the poor is not being a sugar daddy, as it can be a caring, merciful and compassionate person.

What would be your solution to help feed the poor? Not finding faults, but finding a solution. 

[ayin jade]

14 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

I understand my friends who vote Democratic, in that they are concerned about providing for the poor. Unfortunately, your post seems to fight against providing for the poor.

Since most cities do not have fields and orchards within walking distance, so your statement about that is not valid. And what of those who are disabled and unable to glean? And unable to leave their homes? Caring for the poor is not being a sugar daddy, as it can be a caring, merciful and compassionate person.

What would be your solution to help feed the poor? Not finding faults, but finding a solution. 

What about where the bible says he who does not work shall not eat?

The bible says to take care of the helpless, not the ones who are too lazy to work. The secular govt was never supposed to be the answer to helping poverty. 

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

I understand my friends who vote Democratic, in that they are concerned about providing for the poor. Unfortunately, your post seems to fight against providing for the poor.

Since most cities do not have fields and orchards within walking distance, so your statement about that is not valid. And what of those who are disabled and unable to glean? And unable to leave their homes? Caring for the poor is not being a sugar daddy, as it can be a caring, merciful and compassionate person.

What would be your solution to help feed the poor? Not finding faults, but finding a solution. 

My statement about the fields was completely valid.  It illustrates the point that poor still need to work for their food unless they are too physically infirmed to do so, which most of the time, isn't  the case.  I have seen people with extreme disabilities, Cerebral Palsy, double amputees and those with Downs Syndrome who can find something to  do and want to do something.  They are not lazy lumps on a log.   I am more than willing to help those who want to do something to contribute, to the extent that they can.

I am not against providing for the poor.  The point I made was that they need to be willing to work for it.  The Bible's plan was that the poor were provided for, but they still had to go to the field and gather the food.  No one gathered it for them.  The poor need to work for their food, perform some service for the community in exchange for food if they want to eat.   It's that simple.    I do find fault with lazy people who simply want to live off of the backs of people who work hard and pay taxes and don't get any of the breaks.   My solution would also include refusing any taxpayer funded benefits to non-citizens and illegal aliens.   If they have to work for their food, the allure of America will wane and eventually they will self-deport.   

My solution is to put people to work.   The liberals only perpetuate poverty.  They just want to spend more and throw money at the poor and so far that strategy has failed.  My solution is provide Welfare benefits on a sliding scale each month.   The first month you get 100%.  The second month, you get 80%.  The third month you get 60% and so on and that will provide some incentive to get out and work because pretty soon, you will get 0%.

[MorningGlory]

3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

My statement about the fields was completely valid.  It illustrates the point that poor still need to work for their food unless they are too physically infirmed to do so, which most of the time, isn't  the case.  I have seen people with extreme disabilities, Cerebral Palsy, double amputees and those with Downs Syndrome who can find something to  do and want to do something.  They are not lazy lumps on a log.   I am more than willing to help those who want to do something to contribute, to the extent that they can.

I am not against providing for the poor.  The point I made was that they need to be willing to work for it.  The Bible's plan was that the poor were provided for, but they still had to go to the field and gather the food.  No one gathered it for them.  The poor need to work for their food, perform some service for the community in exchange for food if they want to eat.   It's that simple.    I do find fault with lazy people who simply want to live off of the backs of people who work hard and pay taxes and don't get any of the breaks.   My solution would also include refusing any taxpayer funded benefits to non-citizens and illegal aliens.   If they have to work for their food, the allure of America will wane and eventually they will self-deport.   

My solution is to put people to work.   The liberals only perpetuate poverty.  They just want to spend more and throw money at the poor and so far that strategy has failed.  My solution is provide Welfare benefits on a sliding scale each month.   The first month you get 100%.  The second month, you get 80%.  The third month you get 60% and so on and that will provide some incentive to get out and work because pretty soon, you will get 0%.

I'm going to second the above.  A sliding scale is a great idea.  Providing for the elderly, disabled and those who have mental disabilities is no problem for me; we are to provide for those who can't help themselves. But young, healthy adults sitting around on the dole make me crazy!  I think we all remember 'surfer dude' in California who bragged about eating steak on food stamps.  Ever wonder how those thousands of protesters can be in the street in the middle of the day?  I can't do that; I'd get fired.