Sequence-of-Events Analysis

[seeking the lost]

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

It is not a good idea to put too fine a point on parables. Rather,  the rest of Scripture should be primarily taken into account.  Thus we see that the wheat is already in Heaven (Rev 7) before the tares are harvested (Rev 14).

It is not the parable that gives us the information as much as Jesus explaining exactly what it means.  Should we not then pay more attention?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

Thus we see that the wheat is already in Heaven (Rev 7) before the tares are harvested (Rev 14).

There are five times the Bible sequences the two resurrections from death to hereafter.  The first is only for the (spiritually) "Living", while the second include both (spiritually) "Living" and "Dead".

Rev 7 and Rev 14 are not to be viewed as one linear narrative, but rather are parallel.  Those are not tares in Rev 14:14-16.

The Harvest of Rev 14:14-16 is the same as Mt 24:31. The tares are burned immediately after in Rev 14:17-20.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

6 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Would it be appropriate to say that nothing happens to the wheat until the tares are burnt up?

First I want to say, 'no', but then I'd have to know what you mean by nothing happens.

My take on things from my analysis of Scripture's sequence-of-events.

The Elect, the wheat, are handed over.  We are allowed to not only be oppressed during the first half of the one 'seven', to be waged war upon, but in the second half, with the Great Tribulation coming at the midpoint on the heels of the talking image abomination in the Temple - we are persecuted to a greater horror than at any other time past or future.  Hundreds of millions will die.   This will be state sponsored and the media will hate us more than they hate Trump and the whole world will want us dead as they go non-stop against us.

Furthermore, before all the Elect are killed, God will step in and cut that time short.  Some of us will remain and be alive to see Jesus coming with the Saints He has resurrected from Paradise on the clouds with Him.  Then we who remain will be "caught up" with them.

So two very big, important things happen to the wheat before the tares are burned up.  And just because these prior events are not included in the parable do not invalidate the take on this parable as describing and being aligned with a Pre-Wrath position.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

6 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

 If this happens first that the tares are burned then the wheat is gathered could the theory of the wheat being taken up and then the tares are dealt with be out of sequence?

In the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology of Rev chapters 4-11 (exclusive), out of the Great Tribualtion, the Great Multitude arrive in Heaven before the Fire and Blood proceed with the 1st Trumpet.

In the detailed, parallel account to that overview, in Rev chapters 13-16 (inclusive), likewise, the Harvest from the clouds, like Mt 24:31 and 1Th 4:16-17; happens before the avenging Angels with the Fire and Blood are unleashed.

The tares are collected to be burned - in the future;  but first the wheat is brought into the barn of heaven with its Harvest - the Great Multitude.  Now that the wheat is safely removed, the burning with the 1st Trumpet can begin, and the tares will burn.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

It is not the parable that gives us the information as much as Jesus explaining exactly what it means.  Should we not then pay more attention?

Yes.  This parable comes before John writes the revelations he received after being translated to Heaven.  This is the first time we see a Rescue-then-Wrath sequencing.  Later, Jesus will reference Noah and Lot who were also rescued before God's Wrath came.

(And before anyone wants to quip that Noah was not taken, remember any analogy along those lines MUST work the same way with Lot.)

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

It is not the parable that gives us the information as much as Jesus explaining exactly what it means.  Should we not then pay more attention?

Well we should really go to verses 37-43 (Matthew 13) to find the conclusion of the matter.  The final judgement of the unsaved (the tares) is connected to the Great White Throne judgement, the Lake of Fire, and the end of the world (or the end of the age).  The Rapture takes place long before that.

And "the harvest of the earth" in Revelation 14 is directly connected to the tares. As Scripture says regarding Christians -- our citizenship is in Heaven, therefore the earth represents the lost.

[Sister]

 There are three reapings.

The 144K are harvested FIRST.  They are standing before the throne of God.  Taken already, the FIRST-FRUITS.

AFTER THIS;

The angel preaches the everlasting gospel warning those who dwell on the earth to not take the mark of the beast, nor worship his image.

Has anyone ever heard an angel preaching the gospel?  NO.  But the angel in charge of this is in charge of THE TWO WITNESSES to come.  Therefore the everlasting gospel and the final warning will be carried out through these two prophets as a WITNESS to the whole EARTH.  Some amazing things will be revealed during this time to the world.  They will preach for 3 1/2 yrs.

at the END of THIS WORLD, at the 7TH TRUMP, ...this world consisting of Satan's Kingdom's, will bring forth another harvest....

HARVEST NO. 2, is THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH.  Of all men who have heard of Christ from his days, and accepted him.... to the last generation will be SELECTED.  This includes all the saints in the grave, and all those remaining ALIVE,... together will be picked up and gathered unto Christ. These are chosen AMONGST THE EARTH, all who followed Christ and are ACCEPTED.  These are REAPED from THE EARTH....The good fruits.

All those not chosen for the first resurrection, remain behind for what's to follow, ...not destroyed just yet.  They are RESERVED for hailstones etc....and to witness Babylon being destroyed by the LAMB OF GOD.  A great many will die, but not all.

Now HARVEST NO. 3, is the reaping of THE WINEPRESS.  All the vine of THE EARTH, has been gathered to be put into the WINEPRESS.  This means that ALL the VERY WICKED,...MOST WICKED of THE EARTH , are chosen to gather with the ARMIES to WAR the LAMB.  They will all be killed in the same spot just outside JERUSALEM. They have chosen to serve  BABYLON, and will die defending her.  All the blood will come up to a horses bridle.  MUCH DEATH.

Three reapings.

1. the 144K - picked up

2.  the earth - saints picked up, the remainder stay

3.  the winepress - no one picked up, armies killed, and those tares chosen for the fire will receive the first death now.

Mind you No. 2 & 3 all happen in the SAME DAY.  In the same hour.  If you don't believe me, read Rev 14.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

And "the harvest of the earth" in Revelation 14 is directly connected to the tares. As Scripture says regarding Christians -- our citizenship is in Heaven, therefore the earth represents the lost.

Again, I vehemently disagree.  From page 4 of this thread:

In outline form from the four chapters of Revelation 13 through 16 here are the “events:”

• The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea”
  • Worship of the beast (rebellion against God)
• Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven'
  • He wages war against the Saints
  • We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15)
• Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky'
• Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination
• Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution
• 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion
• 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
• Son of Man coming on the clouds
• Harvest from the clouds
• Avenging Angels - Blood and Fire
• First Bowl - Sores on Man
• Second Bowl - All sea to blood
• Third Bowl - All water to blood
• Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
• Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
• Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
• Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake

The Harvest is for the wheat.  You don't "harvest" weeds.

The talking image of Rev 13:14-15 is the abomination of Mt 24:15

The two laws of chapter 13 are what make the Great Tribulation so terrible in Mt 24:21.  The Church is here.

The Church expands with the Gospel reaching those who have never heard it, and then the end (of the Church age) will come as Jesus said.

Like with the broad overview in the Seal/Scroll chronology, the 144,000, as Firstfruits, precede the Harvest which results in that parallel account with the Great Multitude who come out of the Great Tribulation - which again ties In with what happens after the Two laws go into effect.

The coming on the clouds replicates the Rapture of Mt 24:31 and 1Th 4:17.

The Harvest is for the wheat in the parable of Mt 13 - not the tares.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

 at the END of THIS WORLD, at the 7TH TRUMP, ...this world consisting of Satan's Kingdom's, will bring forth another harvest....

HARVEST NO. 2, is THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH.  Of all men who have heard of Christ from his days, and accepted him.... to the last generation will be SELECTED.  This includes all the saints in the grave, and all those remaining ALIVE,... together will be picked up and gathered unto Christ. These are chosen AMONGST THE EARTH, all who followed Christ and are ACCEPTED.  These are REAPED from THE EARTH....The good fruits.

All those not chosen for the first resurrection, remain behind for what's to follow, ...not destroyed just yet.  They are RESERVED for hailstones etc....and to witness Babylon being destroyed by the LAMB OF GOD.  A great many will die, but not all.

Now HARVEST NO. 3, is the reaping of THE WINEPRESS.  All the vine of THE EARTH, has been gathered to be put into the WINEPRESS.  This means that ALL the VERY WICKED,...MOST WICKED of THE EARTH , are chosen to gather with the ARMIES to WAR the LAMB.  They will all be killed in the same spot just outside JERUSALEM. They have chosen to serve  BABYLON, and will die defending her.  All the blood will come up to a horses bridle.  MUCH DEATH.

Three reapings.

1. the 144K - picked up

2.  the earth - saints picked up, the remainder stay

3.  the winepress - no one picked up, armies killed, and those tares chosen for the fire will receive the first death now.

Mind you No. 2 & 3 all happen in the SAME DAY.  In the same hour.  If you don't believe me, read Rev 14.

No, all three happen with the Day of the Lord, a single Hebrew defined day.

And have you not read this Sequence-of-Events?  The Rapture consistently is described as happening before any Wrath goes forth. 

As far as the classical Post-Trib, 7th Trumpet is the Last Trumpet, here is the OP of a thread I did on that:

Here, logically from Scripture, is why the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

1. The Last Trumpet calls the Dead forth from Paradise (the ends of Heaven). 

1Co 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 

2. That happens on the Day of the Lord as Paul identifies it. 

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

On the Day of the Lord we will see the Dead in Christ rise first and then we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them on the clouds. So we have two markers here which identify when Jesus is coming for us. 

• It is on the Day of the Lord.
• It is on the clouds.

3. The Day of the Lord is when Jesus comes to get us. The Day of the Lord is identified by its signature Sun/moon/star sign: 

MT 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

MT 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Jesus uses the Sun/moon/star event from prophecy to identify the Day when He comes on the clouds to gather the Elect - just like Paul says in 1Th 4:16-17 which directly relates back to 1Co 15:52.

4. The specific and unique signature sign heralding the Day of the Lord is revealed by Jesus to John with the sixth Seal:

REV 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Therefore, we can conclude that Day of the Lord happens at the breaking of the sixth Seal. 
- The Day of the Lord is when we are gathered up as Paul said in Second Thessalonians.
- Jesus said that after the Day of the Lord sign comes, the Elect will be gathered.
- Therefore, in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11, the Great Multitude are the result of that gathering Harvest of Saints out of the then-shortened time of the Great Tribulation.
- This claim is buttressed by the eyewitness testimony of an Elder who says the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, which echoes exactly the order Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse.

The Day of the Lord happens before ANY of the Trumpet Judgments go forth.
·         Only after the sixth Seal is broken is the seventh Seal broken.
·         Then, and only then, when all the Seals have been broken, can the Scroll, where “desolations have been decreed” from 2500 years ago (Dan 9:26), be read, and only then does the First Trumpet of seven even sound.
·         And then, and only then, do we see “desolations” of Biblical proportions inflicted upon creation which in turn creates hardship for the wicked left upon the earth.

The Church is not to endure these conditions:

Rom 2:8 But for those who are self–seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.  9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

1Th 1:10 …and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead —Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1Th 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self–controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.  9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.  10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet.

·         The Bible never labels the seventh Trumpet as the Last Trumpet.
·         Instead, the “Last Trumpet,” as a named trumpet, is associated with the opening of Rosh ha-Shanah, the fall time Holy Day also known as the Festival of Trumpets. 
·         It is the first of many different trumpet soundings which occur over the next two days of this special Holy “Day” observance.
·         The “Last Trumpet” in Jewish ritual observance, of which Paul was schooled and practiced, is the mirror horn from the blowing of the “First Trumpet” sounded at the Festival of First Fruits in the spring.

The Last Trumpet in end-time prophecy happens after:

1. The one ‘seven’ starts
2. The first half oppression
3. The midpoint abomination(s)
4. The Great Tribulation

It happens on:

The Day of the Lord

It happens before:

1. Any of God’s Wrath goes forth which begins with fire (and the resultant smoke) on the Day of the Lord (second half) – first Trumpet
2. The rest of the Trumpet Judgments (which take time)
3. The final Bowl Judgments (which are the third Woe which is never delineated in the Seal chronology) which complete the one ‘seven’ as per Daniel 9:27.

    

[seeking the lost]

7 hours ago, Ezra said:

Well we should really go to verses 37-43 (Matthew 13) to find the conclusion of the matter.  The final judgement of the unsaved (the tares) is connected to the Great White Throne judgement, the Lake of Fire, and the end of the world (or the end of the age).  The Rapture takes place long before that.

If the wheat and tares are growing together until this time with no separation, in fact a warning to leave them alone, how is it that you say the rapture takes place long before that?