Sequence-of-Events Analysis

[seeking the lost]

10 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

 

17 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Would it be appropriate to say that nothing happens to the wheat until the tares are burnt up?

First I want to say, 'no', but then I'd have to know what you mean by nothing happens.

 

The words of Jesus tell us that the wheat and the tares are together until this time.  The, nothing happens, means there is no separation before this time. 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

The words of Jesus tell us that the wheat and the tares are together until this time.  The, nothing happens, means there is no separation before this time. 

I agree as we are with them now.  Furthermore, they are the ones participating in the oppression us in the first half of the one 'seven', and as they will worship the beast and take the mark; they participate again in persecuting us during the Great Tribulation.

I do not use the parable of the wheat and tares in constructing the Sequence-of-Events because it is not a linear narrative.

However, there is no discrepancy between it and the linear narratives Jesus gives with the Olivet Discourse; and the broad overview with the sixth Seal, and the parallel detailed narrative Jesus gives John in Revelation chapters 13 through 16.   As Jesus gives us all four, having no discrepancy between them follows naturally: He told us truthfully.

[seeking the lost]

51 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I agree as we are with them now.  Furthermore, they are the ones participating in the oppression us in the first half of the one 'seven', and as they will worship the beast and take the mark; they participate again in persecuting us during the Great Tribulation.

I do not use the parable of the wheat and tares in constructing the Sequence-of-Events because it is not a linear narrative.

However, there is no discrepancy between it and the linear narratives Jesus gives with the Olivet Discourse; and the broad overview with the sixth Seal, and the parallel detailed narrative Jesus gives John in Revelation chapters 13 through 16.   As Jesus gives us all four, having no discrepancy between them follows naturally: He told us truthfully.

Thank you for sharing of your studies.

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The tares are collected to be burned - in the future;  but first the wheat is brought into the barn of heaven with its Harvest - the Great Multitude.  Now that the wheat is safely removed, the burning with the 1st Trumpet can begin, and the tares will burn.

8 hours ago, Ezra said:

Well we should really go to verses 37-43 (Matthew 13) to find the conclusion of the matter.  The final judgement of the unsaved (the tares) is connected to the Great White Throne judgement, the Lake of Fire, and the end of the world (or the end of the age).  The Rapture takes place long before that.

Matt. 13:40 “Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His [the Son of Man's = earthly] kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Marcus is correct about the infinitive "to burn them," which doesn't say when. Jesus provides the when in the later explanation (above), saying that they will be cast into the furnace of fire, that is, the lake of fire. That casting only comes after the Battle of Armageddon of Rev. 16 and 19, when the Beast and human kings kings of the earth are defeated and "cast into the fire," Rev. 19:20. So there is a considerable period of time between the initial collecting/binding and the latter punishment/burning. This is shown elsewhere, in Isaiah 24:

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.

22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.

At the beginning of the End Time period of God's judgments, like in the days of the Exodus period of  God'sjudgments, the gods/elohim will be the first to be judged.

Ex. 12:12 ‘For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods/elohim of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

Num. 33:4 For the Egyptians were burying all their firstborn, whom the LORD had killed among them. Also on their gods the LORD had executed judgments.

Then judgments proceeds to earth, to come upon the various classes of people in their order: spiritual, soulish, and carnal. Only at the very end of all the judgments will the rebels be cast into the fire.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Marcus is correct about the infinitive "to burn them," which doesn't say when. 

Right, the timing is only set after the wheat is gathered up.  This is the nature of the Sequence-of-Events analysis approach: timing is not given, just the order in which they happen.

 

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Jesus provides the when in the later explanation (above), saying that they will be cast into the furnace of fire, that is, the lake of fire. That casting only comes after the Battle of Armageddon of Rev. 16 and 19, when the Beast and human kings kings of the earth are defeated and "cast into the fire," Rev. 19:20. So there is a considerable period of time between the initial collecting/binding and the latter punishment/burning. This is shown elsewhere, in Isaiah 24:

This is what I was warning about.

Jesus provides TWO explanations of the tares at the end of the "AGE".

• The first is from the world.
• The second, the source quote for WilliamL's exegesis; is from the Kingdom.

Mt 13:37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

• The field is the world.
• The "HARVEST" is the end of the "AGE".  - But which time period does this age pertain to being?
• Jesus states the end of the age will also come once the Gospel is preached throughout the world in the broad overview to the Olivet Discourse in Mt 24:14.  
• And this happens as revealed in Rev 14:6 which also comes before the Harvest of Rev 14:14-16.

I put it to you, the reader, that this Age is the time when Grace is extended through Faith alone: i.e., the Church Age.

This order does not need any reconciliation to the Sequence-of-Events outline I have developed before you.

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However, when we come to the second portion, without discernable break, Jesus says:

40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father.

• The tares are burned with fire.
• This is also at the end of the Age, but again, age is not defined!
• They are collected (syllego) (just like before, unlike gathered, synago, for the wheat) out of the Kingdom.
• They are thrown into the furnace of fire.
• The Righteous remain.

In this explanation, the reader could well maintain a Post-Millennial position: We stay put, and they leave.

How to reconcile this difference?

I put it to you, the reader, that this Age refers to the Old Earth; the one we're on now.

According to Jesus, the world's wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire only at the end of all things, after the Millennium, and after the uprising of the whole world then against the Camp of God's people at Jerusalem.

• The Kingdom includes both Heaven and earth.
• The world does not become part of the Kingdom until the end of the one 'seven', but the Harvest comes before that as demonstrated in two parallel accounts in the book of Revelation.  

So:

• As per v.38, the removal of the tares from the world is their physical destruction/death on earth by means of the "desolations God has decreed".
• They still remain in Hades through the Millennium.
• Hades is under God's Rule: it is a part of the Kingdom in it's broadest sense.
• Their removal from the Kingdom is their spiritual destruction/Hellfire in the hereafter.

________________________________________________________________

Now why has Jesus made this so confusing, using the same language: "the end of the age", for both?

Did He not just say:

Mt 13:14. "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; 15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

This parable is confusing because it's explanation includes two ends of two ages.

So look at how Jesus very carefully chooses His Words (with Wisdom).  The first is the removal of the wheat from the world and the tares are burned in it (destroyed, not literally all burned) and the second is the removal of the tares from God's Kingdom, with a very literal burning, and the "Righteous" live forever with God in the New Earth.

[Sister]

10 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

 

Marcus O'Reillius

All I can do is give the chapter 14 here.  I have not messed up the order, which is why I said to read the chapter and verify the sequence already laid out for us.  God did not jumble the order in this chapter, but condensed it and gave it in order.
 

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No, all three happen with the Day of the Lord, a single Hebrew defined day.

And have you not read this Sequence-of-Events?  The Rapture consistently is described as happening before any Wrath goes forth. 

 

You have missed the order laid out from the scriptures.  In that whole chapter 14, it is clear.

After the 144K are standing on Mt Sion....with Christ, no one else there YET.....then the final warning is given to men NOT TO TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST.  As I explained, the two witnesses will come on to the scene after the 144K are reaped.

 Revelation 14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 14:12   Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

  Revelation 14:13   And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
 

The saints who die from here-after are dying because they REFUSE the MARK OF THE BEAST.  They are clearly not raptured, but have chosen death "instead" because they chose Christ.  They are blessed, because they have have been "killed" for their faith, not raptured.

 

Revelation 14:14   And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

  Revelation 14:15   And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

If the 144K are reaped already, before the final warning of the Mark of the Beast, then the harvest of the earth comes second.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Sister

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Sister said:

You have missed the order laid out from the scriptures.  In that whole chapter 14, it is clear.

Any time someone tells me that something is "clear" I know it is anything but clear.  Rather they have reached their own conclusion.

Did you read the opening post?  Do you realize that this analysis only covers the events which are laid out in linear, prophetic narratives?  I deliberately leave out descriptive verses, warnings, and ancillary material which may have great instructive value - so I can get to the BIG picture: WHAT HAPPENS.

This is how I summarize chapter 14's EVENTS:

• 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion; Jesus standing on the earth.
• 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
• Son of Man coming on the clouds
• Harvest from the clouds
• Avenging Angels - Blood and Fire

Let me show you how I distill this chapter down for you.

• Rev 14:1 - Event.  Jesus standing on the earth; 144,000 on Mount Zion.
• Rev 14:2 - Descriptive.  Describes a heavenly voice.
• Rev 14:3 - Detail fact.  The 144,000 sing a song no man could learn.  
• Rev 14:4a - Descriptive.  Qualifications of 144,000.
• Rev 14:4b - Fact.  The 144,000 never leave Jesus' side.
• Rev 14:4c - Fact.  144,000 = Firstfruits.
• Rev 14:5 - Descriptive.  Qualifications of the 144,000.

So in all this, while great stuff, I get one event: The 144,000 mustered on Mount Zion with Jesus standing on the earth. The other facts, descriptions, and detail have no place in ordering this event with other events so as to bring forth a singular, holistic timeline in outline form.

• Rev 14:6 - Event.  1st of 3 Angels fulfills the Great Commission to everyone.
• Rev 14:7 - Descriptive.  Says what the Angel says.
• Rev 14:8 - Event.  2nd of 3 Angels makes an announcement of Babylons fall.  (It's a done deal.)
• Rev 14:9-10 - Event.  3rd of 3 Angels warns the wicked of the consequence to follow.
• Rev 14:11 - Descriptive.  How they will be punished.
• Rev 14:12 - Warning.  Keep the commands of Christ / endure patiently.
• Rev 14:13 - Fact.  Blessing for those who do so.

 In all this, I get one combined event: 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked.  

• Rev 14:14 - Event.  Jesus on the clouds with a sickle.
• Rev 14:15 - Event.  Command to reap.
• Rev 14:16 - Event.  Jesus harvests the earth.

Out of this, I note a comparison to the Olivet Discourse and I combine to three into two: Son of Man coming on the clouds, and Harvest from the clouds.

These two events are specific and unique, and compare with events in the Olivet Discourse, and 1st Thessalonians chapter 4.

• Rev 14:17 - Event.  Another Angel comes out of the Hevenly Temple with a sickle.
• Rev 14:18a - Event.  Yet another Angel with power over fire comes out from the Altar.
• Rev 14:18b - Event.  Command to reap.
• Rev 14:19 - Event.  Reaps into the winepress of God's Wrath.
• Rev 14:20 - Descriptive fact. The results of the winepress = blood.

I distill these facts into one bullet point: Avenging Angels of Fire and Blood.  The significance of this fact is that these Angels work with our Lord to fulfill two of the three elements found with the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

So I do not omit Scripture: I only sequence the events Scripture lays out in linear, prophetic narratives.

[Sister]

Marcus

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Any time someone tells me that something is "clear" I know it is anything but clear.  Rather they have reached their own conclusion.

I did not write Rev chapter 14.  It's laid out for us but condensed.

 

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Did you read the opening post?  Do you realize that this analysis only covers the events which are laid out in linear, prophetic narratives?  I deliberately leave out descriptive verses, warnings, and ancillary material which may have great instructive value - so I can get to the BIG picture: WHAT HAPPENS.

Yes ok, but you are not the only one.  We are all looking at the big picture.  However, we don't all agree.

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This is how I summarize chapter 14's EVENTS:

• 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion; Jesus standing on the earth.

 

I know there is a physical Mt Zion, but this one is not it. 

They are standing on Mt Zion, which is the Kingdom of God.  They are standing in heaven before the throne of God.  They are redeemed from the earth, standing in heaven.

 Revelation 14:3   And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

There is something you may of missed, and I hope this helps.  Christ does not set up his throne on this earth until everything is finished.  I.e. not before the Mark of the Beast, and not before Armageddon, but only after he has destroyed Babylon at his Coming, the finale for now.  That throne the 144K are standing before is in heaven.  Which is why I say they are reaped first - the first-fruits.

 

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Let me show you how I distill this chapter down for you.

• Rev 14:1 - Event.  Jesus standing on the earth; 144,000 on Mount Zion.
• Rev 14:2 - Descriptive.  Describes a heavenly voice.
• Rev 14:3 - Detail fact.  The 144,000 sing a song no man could learn.  
• Rev 14:4a - Descriptive.  Qualifications of 144,000.
• Rev 14:4b - Fact.  The 144,000 never leave Jesus' side.
• Rev 14:4c - Fact.  144,000 = Firstfruits.
• Rev 14:5 - Descriptive.  Qualifications of the 144,000.

So in all this, while great stuff, I get one event: The 144,000 mustered on Mount Zion with Jesus standing on the earth. The other facts, descriptions, and detail have no place in ordering this event with other events so as to bring forth a singular, holistic timeline in outline form.

 

I can show you the same order in Rev 7 also.

The sealing of the 144,000 is the "picking up of them", ...it's the same event......then AFTER this, the great multitude.  It's condensed also. but no "details" here YET until you read further.

And I can show the exact same order also in Rev 11.

The measuring of the altar is them...the 144K.  It has to be....the ones who follow the Lamb, and the ones sealed with the Father's name on their foreheads, and the same ones who are standing on Mt Zion (the Kingdom of God, in heaven).  The court is where all the Christians who go through tribulation are standing.  This is where they get their chance to refuse the Mark of the Beast.  This is when persecutions will start, and blessed are those who die from here on..... and  THEY will be trodden on by the gentiles.  Given into their hands for 3 1/2 yrs.  The 2 witnesses start their 3 1/2 yr testimony during the tribulation to give the last warning to NOT TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST....but the 144K redeemed from men, are gone already.

This is how I see you put it together to get the big picture.  A little here and a little there.

 

 

 

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

12 hours ago, Sister said:

As I explained, the two witnesses will come on to the scene after the 144K are reaped.

"As you explained?"  I know of no explanation, and I think you are quite mistaken in your placement.

THAT kind of statement is why I prefer my way of looking at the big picture because it allows me to integrate other linear, parallel accounts and other prophetic facts, as I do in the following chapters of my book-in-progress.

Now, I am on vacation, so I don't have all my materials at hand, but right off the cuff, I know an Old Testament prophet said Elijah would PRECEDE the Messiah's coming.  Jesus confirms this in His Ministry, and points to John the Baptist as being of that type.  However, the final fulfillment comes before the Day of the Lord and His Return.

In the short, sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses, Rev 11:1-13, nestled in the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology; the Two Witnesses time is the whole length of one half of the one 'seven.'  I already put up that I tegration, perhaps you missed it.  It's back on page 3 of this thread.  They are God's "First Responders," and like Marines, take the beachhead and cannot be defeated by man.  The Two Witnesses arrive with the erection of the talking image of the King of the North placed in the Temple in Jerusalem.

The Two Witnesses PRECEDE the "mustering" (and again, this interpretation is brought out in a separate chapter) of the 144,000 - who are standing on the earth, on the newly cleft Mount of Olives, WITH Jesus, who has descended as He went up!  (Acts 1:11 and Zec 14:4). The second earthquake of the sixth Seal marks His Touchdown.  

[Marcus O'Reillius]

13 hours ago, Sister said:

They are standing on Mount Zion, which is the Kingdom of God.  They are standing in heaven before the throne of God.  They are redeemed from the earth, standing in heaven.

 Revelation 14:3   And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

No, 1.) I didn't "miss" this, and 2.) the very pronoun you point to to say it is the 144,000 before the Throne actually reverts back to v.2 - which in turn describes the two voices John hears.

THOSE voices emanate from before the Throne, and only the 144,000 can learn it.