Sequence-of-Events Analysis

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 8/11/2016 at 3:25 PM, inchrist said:

You have combined the sixth bowl with the 6^th trumpet as a single event

This is the 6th Trumpet: 

Rev 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15 And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them:the riders had breastplates the color of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone; and the heads of the horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm.
20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; 21 and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.

This is how I distill it down to a bullet point:

• Rev 9:13-21 - Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3 of man killed

This is the 6th Bowl:

Rev 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.

This is how I distill it down to a bullet point:

• Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E

This is how I present them in the entire timeline of events distilled from the sequence-of-events found in the linear narrative end-time prophetic passages:

• Wrath of God following the Day of the Lord
  • Second Trumpet  - 1/3rd of sea to blood
  • Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter
  • Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck
  • Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment
  • Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rd of man killed
  • Seventh Trumpet
    • First Bowl - Sores on Man
    • Second Bowl - All sea to blood
    • Third Bowl - All water to blood
    • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
    • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
    • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon
      • Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss
      • The Great Multitude and the 24 Elders rejoice in Heaven
      • Jesus and His army (144,000) go out to do battle
    • Seventh Bowl – Man of Lawlessness is undone:
      • end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator
      • Victory at Armageddon
      • anti-Christ and false prophet captured
      • Two Witnesses arise
      •  Earth changing earthquake
      • Jews survive the earthquake in Jerusalem
• End of the one ‘seven’

Now I have not combined the 6th Trumpet with the 6th Bowl.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 8/11/2016 at 3:25 PM, inchrist said:

Further you have the Rosh Hashanah occurring in the 6^th seal for the resurrection and rapture?

And your complaint is? ~ That this doesn't fit with your eschatology?

Again, I have shown how I have blended the sixth Seal around specific and unique events which occur in the Olivet Discourse, Daniel 9:27 and Revelation's 6th Seal.

• I did not put the specific and unique marker of the sun/moon/star event in the Olivet Discourse.
• I did not put the specific and unique marker of the sun/moon/star event in the sixth Seal.
• I did not say that the specific and unique marker of the sun/moon/star event preceded the Day of the Lord.
• I did not say that the gathering of the Elect happens after the sun/moon/star event.
• I did not say that the Great Multitude appear in Heaven before the Father after the sun/moon/star event.

The WORD OF GOD put those references there and said all that.

I just put them together around this one specific and unique event; - from page 2 of this thread putting the three linear narrative passages I just mentioned together:

• Midpoint Abomination
• Great Tribulation
• Sun/moon/star event
• Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man
• Mustering the 144,000
• The Son of Man coming on the clouds
• Redemption / Gathering Elect from the earth
• Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation

Yeah, the resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture happens at some point:
- after the midpoint Abomination, 
- after the Great Tribulation, 
- and after the prerequisite sign of the Day of the Lord

= Which happens with the events of the sixth Seal.

Now if you want to argue something different, please do so from related Scripture, and you might start with why you think the Day of the Lord does not happen at the sixth Seal.  However!  To say that it doesn't because your eschatology places the Rapture differently does not refute what Jesus revealed to John and us as happening in conjunction with the sixth Seal.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 8/11/2016 at 3:25 PM, inchrist said:

So from Rosh Hashanah (6th seal) all the way to the Day of Atonement ( 7th bowl) being 10 days ( 10 days of awe)?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 8/11/2016 at 3:25 PM, inchrist said:

So from Rosh Hashanah (6^th seal) all the way to the Day of Atonement ( 7th bowl) being 10 days ( 10 days of awe)?

 

For some reason, this quote function is acting funny...

Where do you get from Scripture that God's Wrath must align exactly with the Festivals to the very day?

That is an assumption on your part.

I only note that that my sequencing of events lists:

• Rapture
• -then-Wrath
• -then-Atonement with the Jews
• -then-their encampment at Mount Zion,

Fits the same pattern as the Fall Festivals:

• Rosh ha-Shannah
• -then-Days of Awe
• -then-Yom Kippur
• -then-Sukkot.

Scripture only says:

Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

The festivals are MERE SHADOWS OF WHAT IS TO COME.  Paul does not tell us it's an exact match.
Nor does what Jesus tell us about the Wrath of God fit within ten days - after all: how is it that one Woe alone can take five months, and still have all of God's Wrath fit within ten days?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 8/11/2016 at 3:25 PM, inchrist said:

Firstly towards the end of the 6^th trumpet second woe is the timing of the witnesses are Killed, completely separate event to that of the 7^th trumpet / 3^rd woe. Second woe and third woe are not the same event.

I can see no error here.  I do think I see where you're coming from and why from your perspective, you think I've made an error.

Here is my sequencing of God's Wrath from the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology (Rev 4-11 exclusive); the detailed parallel account of the one 'seven' (Rev 13-16 inclusive); and the Sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses (Rev 11:1-13 - the excluded portion of the broad overview):

• • Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment

  • Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rd of man killed

  • Seventh Trumpet
    • First Bowl - Sores on Man

    • Second Bowl - All sea to blood

    • Third Bowl - All water to blood

    • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat

    • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark

    • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon
      • Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss

      • The Great Multitude and the 24 Elders rejoice in Heaven

      • Jesus and His army (144,000) go out to do battle

    • Seventh Bowl – Man of Lawlessness is undone:
      • end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator

      • Victory at Armageddon

      • anti-Christ and false prophet captured

      • Two Witnesses arise

      •  Earth changing earthquake

      • Jews survive the earthquake in Jerusalem

• End of the one ‘seven’

One: Just because the Sidebar account's narrative comes in the pause in the broad overview linear narrative of the Seal/Scroll chronology which is initiated when John is told not to write what is said in conjunction with the seventh Trumpet - does not mean the account happens between the second Woe and the third Woe.

In the Sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses (Rev 11:1-13) there is no DIRECT tie-in to any of the Trumpets.  This account holds BOTH HALVES of the one 'seven' and is parallel to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of the Sidebar account).  Again, it contains BOTH HALVES, and the sixth Trumpet does not come before the one 'seven' is initiated, nor does the seventh Trumpet come after the one 'seven' is over.  

You cannot read the book of Revelation as a novel: it is composed of several accounts set in parallel with each other: that is why various actions are repeated, and that is what makes this book so confusing for many.

Two: As a matter of logic, the death of the Two Witnesses is loosely tied to the opening of the Abyss with the 1st Woe because that unleashes the demonic forces which have been imprisoned, probably since the time of Noah (.  The locusts' best interpretation are that they represent demons.  Likewise, we don't know what is unleashed exactly, but they do have a "king":

11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

Now as a matter of logic again, the Two Witnesses only lie dead for three and a half days.  Taken as literal days, this happens right up before the end of the one 'seven' with, in my estimation is over three years worth of God's Wrath raining down on the wicked - which in my opinion is just desserts for them!

Three: SO - because I am NOT restrained by your insistence that God's Wrath take only ten literal days, I have put their death AFTER the first Woe (which is all that Scripture demands)- and right before the end of the one 'seven'.

As I do not think the final battle of the one 'seven', which is set up in the detailed parallel account of Rev chapters 13-16, takes three and a half days; and because Jesus and His Army (the 144,000) are poised to do battle at the end in Revelation chapter 19, which starts the Epilogue parallel account - I sequence their death before that and after the sixth Bowl of the seventh Trumpet so that they die right before the end.  Their death happens before the battle by a couple of days or three - and their resurrection happens with the conclusion of God's Wrath upon the wicked when the anti-Christ and false prophet are beaten and captured.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 8/11/2016 at 3:25 PM, inchrist said:

Secondly the 6^th trumpet and 6^th bowl are not the same event, the spiritual beings responsible for rallying troops in each event are different in at least terms of quantity and origin. 

I do not have the sixth Trumpet and the sixth Bowl as the same event.

• Wrath of God following the Day of the Lord
  • Second Trumpet  - 1/3rd of sea to blood

  • Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter

  • Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck

  • Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment

  • Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rd of man killed

  • Seventh Trumpet
    • First Bowl - Sores on Man

    • Second Bowl - All sea to blood

    • Third Bowl - All water to blood

    • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat

    • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark

    • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon
      • Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss

      • The Great Multitude and the 24 Elders rejoice in Heaven

      • Jesus and His army (144,000) go out to do battle

    • Seventh Bowl – Man of Lawlessness is undone:
      • end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator

      • Victory at Armageddon

      • anti-Christ and false prophet captured

      • Two Witnesses arise

      •  Earth changing earthquake

      • Jews survive the earthquake in Jerusalem

• End of the one ‘seven’

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 8/11/2016 at 3:25 PM, inchrist said:

The four angels unleashed from the Euphrates River are responsible for rallying 200 million troops while three unclean spirits from the mouths of the beast, false prophet, and the dragon are responsible for convincing people to assemble at Armageddon.

The Bible does not say the four Angels are responsible for rallying the 200 million troops.

Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15 And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

The four Angels are responsible for making sure that a third of mankind is killed in their war.

Now  the Bible DOES say the unclean spirits will bring the nations together at Armageddon.  Like with the muslims who kill each other after they're done killing everyone else, so too is it that Satan's house is divided and the wicked will fight each other.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 8/11/2016 at 3:25 PM, inchrist said:

Thirdly when examining Rev 7:9, John “looked” (Tense: Aorist) and "behold" (Tense: Aorist)  the multitude but when we get to Rev 7:17 For the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd. He will lead them to fountains of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”

He will shepherd them (Tense: Future)

Lead them to fountains of living water (Tense: future)

Now Fountains of living water means immortality, why if Rev 7 is your rapture does John not see the multitude immortal, but something that is still to occur for them?

“But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.” John 4:14.

The Aorist tense is not future.  It is a summary tense, usually stated in past tense in translation, but it implies that something WILL BE accomplished as a statement of fact now.

So before you want to go making hay out of nothing. you might want to study some more.  Because otherwise, what you're trying to say here is in error.  

And Revelation 7 is not THE Rapture: it is the RESULT of the Rapture AND the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ.  

[Marcus O'Reillius]

18 hours ago, inchrist said:

But you are constraint [sic] I’m afraid, Christ makes it very clear to the church of Smyrna  will suffer ten days of tribulation,

No, I am NOT constrained by your eschatology,
and every time someone tells me it is "clear" or "very clear" I know it is is anything but!

First of all, I already refuted your claim that the timing of the end-times exactly comport to the timing of the Fall Festivals.
This was done with Scripture!  Colosians 2:16-17

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

So repeating your argument is a fallacy: repetition.  Some people would typify such a repetitive approach as 'stuck on stupid'.  

As to a literal ten days of God's Wrath - that is not supported either. 

1. God's Wrath is not tribulation, and we are not to endure that - Paul again in 1Th 1:10.
2. Nor is this termed the Great Tribulation, which is a specific and unique time - Jesus: Mt 24:22.

The Expositor's Bible Commentary on Revelation 2:10 says this:

The "ten days" may be ten actual days. Or it may be a Semitism for an indeterminate but comparatively short period of time (cf. Neh 4:12; Dan 1:12). In the first- century Roman world, prison was usually not punitive but the prelude to trial and execution, hence the words "Be faithful, even to the point of death."

So the message to the second type of Church may only involve them, and many commentators have drawn a conclusion that the Churches also represent a timeline of The Church - and that Smyrna represents the second and third centuries in this progression.

What we are to take from the Church of Smyrna is that if we persevere and remain faithful through times of tribulation, and that has come and gone through the ages; he who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death. - there is a promise to all if this happens to you.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

it comes as no surprise Christ mentions 10 days of awe.

Jesus didn't say that.

That is a conclusion you have read into Scripture.

Rev 2:10 ...and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.