Once saved always saved?

[HAZARD]

3 hours ago, Sing40King said:

I would like to share my belief about this and why. If we can lose our salvation by sin then nobody here is saved. You won't be saved until you die. Salvation that is lost was never had.

To lose your salvation also makes the grace of God a lie. Grace in undeserved favor from God. Romans 5 repeats this over and over so I guess it was meant to be noticed.

Romans 5

¹⁵ But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

¹⁶ And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

If we are sealed by the Holy Spirit then we can't lose our salvation.

Ephesians 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

I'll add more later but running out of time.

 

You wrote;

"Salvation that is lost was never had."

So, your saying, if someone gave you a Rolex watch as a gift, and then you lost it, your saying you never had it in the first place?

 

[Sing40King]

16 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

You wrote;

 

 

So, your saying, if someone gave you a Rolex watch as a gift, and then you lost it, your saying you never had it in the first place?

 

You can't compare something physical with something spiritual. Salvation is eternal. If you don't have eternal life at the end you never had it.

[HAZARD]

Ok, ""Salvation that is lost was never had."

If you lost it, you must have had it to loose.

The difference between a spirit being and a physical human being is substance.

[Guest shiloh357]

6 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

Ok, ""Salvation that is lost was never had."

If you lost it, you must have had it to loose.

No, the point is that if you are not saved, you never were saved.  

[RealPresence]

I will start this reply by saying - with all due respect - you all have it wrong.
I'm really busy today so I will respond individually to your posts later this evening.

With that said . . . 

The Bible is clear that you CAN lose salvation.  Nobody can take it from you bu YOU can throw it away.
If you were drowning in the ocean and were rescued by a boat - you are SAVED.
You ALWAYS have the option, however to jump off the boat and take your chances.  Unfortunately - MANY people do this.

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8).
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).  This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

 

[RealPresence]

On 12/3/2016 at 11:18 AM, Shilo357 said: That passage is speaking to Jewish people who have a knowledge of the truth, but have not embraced Jesus.   Having a knowledge of Jesus, accepting that knowledge as true, doesn't make one a Christian.  You can assent to the truth without embracing Jesus.   I know lots of sinners who go to church and experience the Christian religion, but never get saved, never embrace Jesus.   Simply adhering to a religion doesn't save you. Jews were under extreme pressure to return to the sacrifices at that time, and this is warning to those Jews who knew the truth, but were going to fall back into the OT economy.

Response from RealPresence:
Wrong again.

As I explained before - the Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei).  This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing. 

The original language doesn’t lie.

On 12/3/2016 at 11:18 AM, Shilo357 said: This passage is speaking to false teachers and their disciples and those who had an external faith, a mental assent to the truth but fell back into their old sinful ways.  They were never changed.  That's why they were able to return.  They had no relationship with Christ to start with.

Response from RealPresence:
WRONG.
You keep dodging the original language in which the NT is written. 

Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS– who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

On 12/3/2016 at 11:18 AM, Shilo357 said: If you look at the context and line of thought, Paul is talking about keeping himself disciplined so that he would not disqualify himself for service.   No one is qualified for salvation and nothing we do can qualify us for it.  Paul wants to make sure that he doesn't negate his preaching by doing something to jeopardize his witness. 

Response from RealPresence:
Wrong.

The Scriptures assure us that following Christ faithfully qualifies us as HIS, thereby SAVING us.  That is our assurance of hope.

Without that assurance – there is NO hope.

On 12/3/2016 at 11:18 AM, Shilo357 said: Yes, but that is not talking about falling from salvation.  There are lots of reasons for why we should not fall into sin and lawlessness that have nothing to do with losing  salvation.    That verse is talking about not being led astray by false teachings and false teachers.   "Secure position"  is not salvation.   It's talking not falling out of steadfastness in mind and faith.

Response from RealPresence:
Talk about Scriptural Acrobatics . . .

The “secure position” that Peter is talking about is our place with GOD.  That is, our salvation.

On 12/3/2016 at 11:18 AM, Shilo357 said: No, what that is (in Greek) is as first class conditional phrase.  It doesn't come off in English well, but what it means is, "if this true (and I know it is) this is what will happen."  It is an assurance of their faithfulness.  It's not warning.  And furthermore, it is about the truth remaining in them.  Literally, it is more in the Greek than simply remaining.  It speaks to the truth being at home within them and they being at home in the truth. And this is about being at home in Jesus.   His point is not that they could lose salvation.  The word "remain" means "to be comfortable with."  If they abide, live in comfortably in the truth, they will abide, be at home in Christ. 

But the Bible, in John 5:4-5 defines an "overcomer"  as one who has put their faith in Jesus.   So to read it that light, it means  "To him to puts his faith in Jesus, I will never blot his name from the book of life.   Actually, the word never is an emphatic word in Greek.  It means I will no, not never blot his name from the book of life.   So, far from being a warning about losing salvation, it is a verse that assures us that if we have put our faith in Jesus, we have overcome and will not be blotted out of His book.

Response from RealPresence:
This is a weak argument because it doesn’t speak to those who ONCE believed in Jesus and had a knowledge (Epignosei) of him – then turned their back on Him. 

An “Overcomer” is one who ENDURES to the end in his steadfastness.

On 12/3/2016 at 11:18 AM, Shilo357 said: That is not talking about the loss of salvation, but a loss of certain blessings that others will experience in the New Earth.  He will not partake of the Tree of life and will not have access to the holy city.   It is not saying he will go to hell.

Response from RealPresence:
HUH??

Everybody who is eventually saved will partake of the Tree of Life.
WHERE do you get this stuff??  Nobody who is saved will be penalized.

This is the splintered mess that is Protestantism.  I know Protestants who believe in the exact opposite of what you’re saying - so who’s right and who is wrong??

Edited December 6, 2016 by RealPresence

[RealPresence]

22 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Ok, ""Salvation that is lost was never had."

If you lost it, you must have had it to loose.

The difference between a spirit being and a physical human being is substance.

That's NOT what the Bible says, as I have amply shown . . .

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, RealPresence said:

That's NOT what the Bible says, as I have amply shown . . .

This is where the Bible shows where many saved people lost their salvation.

 In the Bible we not only have many passages plainly stating that eternal life can be lost and that the saved who sin will die and be damned, but we have many concrete cases of men, and angels who once had eternal life and were in grace and in favour with God, and who sinned and will be damned in Hell forever, regardless of their sonship, and past union with God in grace.

Classic examples.

Lucifer, better known as Satan and the devil, and over one third of God's angels sinned and are to be damned in a Hell especially prepared for them (Matt. 24:41). It would be folly for anyone to argue that they were not once holy and sinless and in God's favour and grace. Angels are definately called "sons of God" (Gen. 6:1-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). These sons of God in Job could not be men, for they were present when God laid the foundations of the Eafth long before man was created (Job 38:4-7). If these "sons of God" fell and are to be damned, then the argument of some that if a man is once a son he cannot be lost or else salvation is not salvation and eternal life is not eternal life, is proved to be a false theory. If God will damn some of creation who were in grace and who are called "sons," then He will also damn others if they sin, else God is unjust and a respecter of persons.

Lucifer is spoken of as being "perfect in they ways from the day that thou wast created, TILL iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:11-17).

Saul, who was in God's favour and who had the Holy Spirit, lost that favour and was destroyed because of sin (1 Chron. 10:13-14). He committed suicide and must be lost, for no murderer has eternal live (1 Sam. 28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21). To argue that Saul was never a saved man is to demonstrate a lack of Bible truth. "God gave Saul another heart . . . and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied (1 Sam. 10:9-13). If this was not an experience of the saved man then it was nothing at all. It is also recorded haw the Spirit of God LEFT HIM WHEN HE SINNED (1 Sam. 16:12-23). Saul went into spiritualism and God said He would cut off the man who did this (Lev. 19:31; 20:6; Deut. 18:11). He was a very humble and godley man to begine with, but he did notend in this way (1 Sam. 10:21-24).

Ananias and Sapphira were both killed by the power of God because of covetousness and lying to the Holy Ghost (acts 5:1-14). That they were once saved is clear from Acts 4:32-5:1, for Ananias and his wife were classed with "the multitude of them that believed" and "were of one heart and one soul . . . as many as were posessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles feet . . . But a certain man [of those who believed and were of one heart andsoul] named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a posession." If these two were believers and had been saved and were in the church, then it cannot be disputed with any degree of honesty that they were once saved and then lost. To deny they were once saved is to deny thruth and it is not worth the price to pay.

Many galatians who were once saved and had "recieved the Spirit" who had "begun in the Spirit" who were "redeemed and justified by faith," and who were "sons" of God by being made free from sin (Gal. 3:2-4; 3:13; 24; 4:4-7; 5:1-26), FELL "from grace" and Christ became "OF NO EFFECT" unto them (Gal. 5:4, 5). They were "removed from Him" and "from grace," so once in grace always in grace is not biblical unless one stays in grace (Gal. 1:6; 3:1-5; 5:1-9). They were plainly told that to go back under the law and into sins of the flesh, meant to "frustrate [cause to fail, nullify, make void] the grace of God" and that in such case they were not in grace and would reap corruption (Gal. 2:21; 5:1-9; 6:7, 8). They were told that if they built again the things of sin that were "once destroyed" they were transgressors and sinners (Gal. 2:17-18). They were taught that true eternal security was by walking in the spirit and not fulfilling the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:16-26; 6:7, 8). Paul did not tell then that if they got in grace their responsibility as to sin was over. He accused them of falling from grace (Gal. 5:4), so such must be possible.

Many other men who were formerly saved have gone back into sin and have bee lost. This fact is clear from such statements as these: "some having put away concerning the faith have MADE SHIPWRECK. . . . he hath DENIED THE FAITH. . . . when they begin to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; HAVING DAMNATION, BECAUSE they have CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH . . . and TURNED ASIDE AFTER SATAN . . . But they that will FALL INTO TEMPTATION AND A SNARE, and INTO MANY FOOLISH AND HURTFUL LUSTS, WHICH DROWN MEN IN DESTRUCTION AND PERDITION. . . . they HAVE ERRED FROM THE FAITH. . . . and OVERTHRONE the FAITH OF SOME. . . . If God will preadventure give them REPENTANCE. . . . that they may RECOVER THEMSELVES OUT OF THE SNARE OF THE DEVIL" (1 Tim. 1"19, 20; 5:8; 5:11-15, 20; 6:1, 10, 21; 2 Tim. 2:18-16).

Each one of the statements above would disprove that doctrin of once in grace and faith always in grace and faith and once saved always saved, but here in 1 and 2 Timothy are many such statements in only two small books of the Bible. False security believers go to any lengthin trying to explain away these simple passages because they so clearly contradict their theory. Some of them go so far as to deliberately mistranslate the Greek and quote self made translations of men to prove that such simple statements do not mean what they say. For example, they mistranslate "they have cast off their first faith" to "they have broken their former promises" as if this proves a person cannot be lost. The Greek word "pistin" from "pistis" is never translated promises out of hundreds of times it is used in the New Testament. It is translated "faith" 222 times and is refered to as having faith in Christ in Rom. 1:5,16, 17; 3:25; 4:5-20; 5:1, 2; 10:17; Gal. 2:20; 3:24-29; Eph. 2:9; 4:5; etc. Thus the "faith" that they made shipwreck" of, "denied," "cast off," "erred from," and did "overthrow" is the true saving faith and has no reference to some promise that the people made themselves. They could not cast off, deny, and make shipwreck of, this saving faith if they had not once had it. They could not get into a snare of the devil AGAIN unless they had once been delivered from him. They could not have "turned aside" AGAIN after Satan, if they had not been following Christ. They could not have ERRED FROM the faith through hurtful lusts that "drowned in destruction and purdition" if they had not been once in the faith and free from such lusts. They could not have their faith OVERTHROWN if they had none to overthrow.

[Guest Teditis]

[1Jo 2:19 KJV] 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[RealPresence]

2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

This is where the Bible shows where many saved people lost their salvation.

 In the Bible we not only have many passages plainly stating that eternal life can be lost and that the saved who sin will die and be damned, but we have many concrete cases of men, and angels who once had eternal life and were in grace and in favour with God, and who sinned and will be damned in Hell forever, regardless of their sonship, and past union with God in grace.

Classic examples.

Lucifer, better known as Satan and the devil, and over one third of God's angels sinned and are to be damned in a Hell especially prepared for them (Matt. 24:41). It would be folly for anyone to argue that they were not once holy and sinless and in God's favour and grace. Angels are definately called "sons of God" (Gen. 6:1-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). These sons of God in Job could not be men, for they were present when God laid the foundations of the Eafth long before man was created (Job 38:4-7). If these "sons of God" fell and are to be damned, then the argument of some that if a man is once a son he cannot be lost or else salvation is not salvation and eternal life is not eternal life, is proved to be a false theory. If God will damn some of creation who were in grace and who are called "sons," then He will also damn others if they sin, else God is unjust and a respecter of persons.

Lucifer is spoken of as being "perfect in they ways from the day that thou wast created, TILL iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:11-17).

Saul, who was in God's favour and who had the Holy Spirit, lost that favour and was destroyed because of sin (1 Chron. 10:13-14). He committed suicide and must be lost, for no murderer has eternal live (1 Sam. 28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21). To argue that Saul was never a saved man is to demonstrate a lack of Bible truth. "God gave Saul another heart . . . and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied (1 Sam. 10:9-13). If this was not an experience of the saved man then it was nothing at all. It is also recorded haw the Spirit of God LEFT HIM WHEN HE SINNED (1 Sam. 16:12-23). Saul went into spiritualism and God said He would cut off the man who did this (Lev. 19:31; 20:6; Deut. 18:11). He was a very humble and godley man to begine with, but he did notend in this way (1 Sam. 10:21-24).

Ananias and Sapphira were both killed by the power of God because of covetousness and lying to the Holy Ghost (acts 5:1-14). That they were once saved is clear from Acts 4:32-5:1, for Ananias and his wife were classed with "the multitude of them that believed" and "were of one heart and one soul . . . as many as were posessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles feet . . . But a certain man [of those who believed and were of one heart andsoul] named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a posession." If these two were believers and had been saved and were in the church, then it cannot be disputed with any degree of honesty that they were once saved and then lost. To deny they were once saved is to deny thruth and it is not worth the price to pay.

Many galatians who were once saved and had "recieved the Spirit" who had "begun in the Spirit" who were "redeemed and justified by faith," and who were "sons" of God by being made free from sin (Gal. 3:2-4; 3:13; 24; 4:4-7; 5:1-26), FELL "from grace" and Christ became "OF NO EFFECT" unto them (Gal. 5:4, 5). They were "removed from Him" and "from grace," so once in grace always in grace is not biblical unless one stays in grace (Gal. 1:6; 3:1-5; 5:1-9). They were plainly told that to go back under the law and into sins of the flesh, meant to "frustrate [cause to fail, nullify, make void] the grace of God" and that in such case they were not in grace and would reap corruption (Gal. 2:21; 5:1-9; 6:7, 8). They were told that if they built again the things of sin that were "once destroyed" they were transgressors and sinners (Gal. 2:17-18). They were taught that true eternal security was by walking in the spirit and not fulfilling the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:16-26; 6:7, 8). Paul did not tell then that if they got in grace their responsibility as to sin was over. He accused them of falling from grace (Gal. 5:4), so such must be possible.

Many other men who were formerly saved have gone back into sin and have bee lost. This fact is clear from such statements as these: "some having put away concerning the faith have MADE SHIPWRECK. . . . he hath DENIED THE FAITH. . . . when they begin to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; HAVING DAMNATION, BECAUSE they have CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH . . . and TURNED ASIDE AFTER SATAN . . . But they that will FALL INTO TEMPTATION AND A SNARE, and INTO MANY FOOLISH AND HURTFUL LUSTS, WHICH DROWN MEN IN DESTRUCTION AND PERDITION. . . . they HAVE ERRED FROM THE FAITH. . . . and OVERTHRONE the FAITH OF SOME. . . . If God will preadventure give them REPENTANCE. . . . that they may RECOVER THEMSELVES OUT OF THE SNARE OF THE DEVIL" (1 Tim. 1"19, 20; 5:8; 5:11-15, 20; 6:1, 10, 21; 2 Tim. 2:18-16).

Each one of the statements above would disprove that doctrin of once in grace and faith always in grace and faith and once saved always saved, but here in 1 and 2 Timothy are many such statements in only two small books of the Bible. False security believers go to any lengthin trying to explain away these simple passages because they so clearly contradict their theory. Some of them go so far as to deliberately mistranslate the Greek and quote self made translations of men to prove that such simple statements do not mean what they say. For example, they mistranslate "they have cast off their first faith" to "they have broken their former promises" as if this proves a person cannot be lost. The Greek word "pistin" from "pistis" is never translated promises out of hundreds of times it is used in the New Testament. It is translated "faith" 222 times and is refered to as having faith in Christ in Rom. 1:5,16, 17; 3:25; 4:5-20; 5:1, 2; 10:17; Gal. 2:20; 3:24-29; Eph. 2:9; 4:5; etc. Thus the "faith" that they made shipwreck" of, "denied," "cast off," "erred from," and did "overthrow" is the true saving faith and has no reference to some promise that the people made themselves. They could not cast off, deny, and make shipwreck of, this saving faith if they had not once had it. They could not get into a snare of the devil AGAIN unless they had once been delivered from him. They could not have "turned aside" AGAIN after Satan, if they had not been following Christ. They could not have ERRED FROM the faith through hurtful lusts that "drowned in destruction and purdition" if they had not been once in the faith and free from such lusts. They could not have their faith OVERTHROWN if they had none to overthrow.

There must be some confusion.
I was responding to the line:   "Salvation that is lost was never had."

 The Church has ALWAYS taught this to be a false statement.