Once saved always saved?

[soonsister]

I'm surprised this discussion has gone forward this many pages.

It seems to me that the new testament is very clear. Jesus taught that salvation is eternal. And that the redeemed in Christ who's sins the Father remembers no more , are no longer sinners. We are saints.

It would appear to me to be a contradiction in terms and in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, if a saint is also a sinner.

Sin, for all that it is defined as in scripture, is counted against the unrepentant, the un-redeemed, the un-regenerate. When God remembers our sins no more after we are saved and become reborn in Christ, how can we then say we keep on sinning? So that God can keep not remembering the new sins? 

The passage that says , if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us, isn't talking to the redeemed in Christ. It's talking to those who are not yet in Christ. Are not yet repentant.

Eternal life is what God decreed through the covenant he made by  his grace with the sacrifice of his son. No one will remove us from Jesus' hand. Not even ourselves when God knew who of his human creation would find their way to Christ even before God created this planet we call home . If our will can supersede God's and we can leave eternal salvation we're more powerful than God. And that's just nonsense in my opinion. 

And the new creation in Christ does not sin.

Otherwise, we'd be giving God more and more sin to remember no more.  And his indwelling Holy Spirit would be traveling right along with us as we defile ourselves, this temple that we are as the redeemed, if we are sinners after being saved. The whole baptism, repentance, rebirth, new creation thing, would be void if we could commit the act of sin that was what condemned us prior to redemption.

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, soonsister said:

The passage that says , if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us, isn't talking to the redeemed in Christ. It's talking to those who are not yet in Christ. Are not yet repentant.

I agree with your post except for the above statement.  1 John is NOT addressed to the lost but to those who are already in Christ ("my little children").

When a sinner gets saved, he is justified and sanctified by God, but he is not rendered sinlessly perfect.  Therefore John is addressing Christians and saying to us "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves".  

This corresponds with what Paul says to us -- that we are to examine ourselves and judge ourselves (1 Cor 11:28,31).  This means that saints can and do sin, but they remain saints.  And further on John says that we are to purify ourselves, in view of the Rapture, when we shall be perfected (1 John 3:1-4).

[soonsister]

53 minutes ago, Ezra said:

I agree with your post except for the above statement.  1 John is NOT addressed to the lost but to those who are already in Christ ("my little children").

When a sinner gets saved, he is justified and sanctified by God, but he is not rendered sinlessly perfect.  Therefore John is addressing Christians and saying to us "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves".  

This corresponds with what Paul says to us -- that we are to examine ourselves and judge ourselves (1 Cor 11:28,31).  This means that saints can and do sin, but they remain saints.  And further on John says that we are to purify ourselves, in view of the Rapture, when we shall be perfected (1 John 3:1-4).

You are certainly entitled to have faith that is true.

[delade3]

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 7:56 PM, BlueMinou said:

Jesus said "If any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book".

Jesus also said "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

And elsewhere, Jesus says, "whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."

Again, Paul says , "we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us."
 

Osas supporters. Thoughts with regards to this?

Being 'saved' is being freed out of dangerous ways such as the wolves who seek to not spare. Acts 20:29 " For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock."

Salvation is being able to walk through that valley of the shadow of death and not be 'killed, stolen, destroyed.'

Edited March 25, 2017 by delade3

[HAZARD]

Saved or not, return to sin and remain there, one will be lost.

When God said to Adam, “Ye shall surely die,” he meant it; and when He says to saved men today that the soul that sinneth it shall die, He means it. This applies to all men who sin and saved men today are no exception. Both Adam and Eve believed the first teacher of unconditional eternal security, the devil, and lost eternal life. So it is today with all who sin and believe the modern lie of the devil that sinning-saints cannot be lost

 

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
 

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. (KJV)

[Happinessity]

Except the prodigal son parable dismisses the claims made using those scriptures out of context being they're old testament. 

We're new testament Christians. Those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. But if they do sin, they have an advocate to the father on their behalf in Jesus Christ. 

 

[Willa]

Joh 15:4  Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. Joh 15:5  "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Joh 15:6  If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Remaining in Christ, clinging to and trusting in Him, is how we produce fruit, and God keeps us.  He also pursues lost sheep to keep us  and returns us to His fold.  

Joh 10:14  I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.  Joh 10:15  As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.  Joh 10:16  And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. Joh 10:28  And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

If we choose to remain in fellowship with Christ, and we follow Him as we walk according to the Spirit, God keeps us.  We produce good fruit.  Period.  End of discussion.

Those who cease to follow Christ, (to walk in the light, living in fellowship with God), who cease to pray and read the Bible but back slide, these put themselves in peril.  If they deny God or spurn His word till they die they do so to their own destruction. 

 

[Guest]

I don't know any saved Christian that is free of sin. That is why we work on our sinful nature and strive to be Christ like. That's why Christ died for us. We are forgive if we do mess up. 

[Wolf Bridges]

On 8/2/2016 at 1:56 AM, BlueMinou said:

Jesus said "If any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book".

Jesus also said "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

And elsewhere, Jesus says, "whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."

Again, Paul says , "we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us."
 

Osas supporters. Thoughts with regards to this?

Yes, and no. 

Yes, those who are in the grace of God are there eternally and irrevocably. 
No, not everyone who claims to be a Christian are in that grace. 

"For many are called, but few are chosen" Matthew 22:14

 

[Denadii]

If once saved always saved is true then why did the Lord say this?

Revelation 2: 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you have left your first love.

5 Remember therefore from where you are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto you quickly, and will remove your lampstand out of its place, except you repent.

Then to the children of the harlot fleshly church that are driven by the seductions of Jezebel Jesus says the following.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her time to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Then to the Laodicean fleshly church that fell into deception of the gospel of greed He says;

Revelation 3 : 15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would that you were cold or hot.

16 So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.

17 Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

Then we see God's call to repentance through Isaiah 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD has spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

3 The ox knows his owner, and the donkey his master's crib: but Israel does not know, my people do not consider.

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a descendant of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they have turned away backward.

5 Why should you be stricken any more? you will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrefying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither soothed with ointment.

7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard, as a hut in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

9 Unless the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? says the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of male goats.

12 When you come to appear before me, who has required this at your hand, to trample my courts?

13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot endure; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary of bearing them.

15 And when you spread forth your hands, I will hide my eyes from you: yea, when you make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash you, make yourself clean; put away the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do good; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it.

21 How has the faithful city become a harlot! it was full of justice; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

22 Your silver has become dross, your wine mixed with water:

23 Your princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: everyone loves bribes, and follows after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither does the cause of the widow come before them.

24 Therefore says the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will rid myself of my adversaries, and avenge myself of my enemies:

25 And I will turn my hand upon you, and thoroughly purge away your dross, and take away all your alloy:

26 And I will restore your judges as at the first, and your counselors as at the beginning: afterward you shall be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

27 Zion shall be redeemed with justice, and her converts with righteousness.

28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

29 For you shall be ashamed of the sacred oaks which you have desired, and you shall be embarrassed for the gardens that you have chosen.

30 For you shall be as an oak whose leaf fades, and as a garden that has no water.

31 And the strong shall be as tinder, and the work of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.

Isaiah 5: 11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflames them!

12 And the harp, and the lyre, the timbrel, and flute, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.

13 Therefore my people have gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honorable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.

14 Therefore sheol has enlarged itself, and opened its mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that exults, shall descend into it.

15 And man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:

16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in justice, and God who is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

17 Then shall the lambs feed in their pasture, and the waste places of the rich ones shall strangers eat.

18 Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:

19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come, that we may know it!

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mix strong drink:

23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe, and take away the justice of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

My friend Pieter Kirstein