Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[S.T. Ranger]

Then this...

He was "with the disciples at the time of this teaching, but Christ taught that when He was come, He (the Comforter, Holy Spirit) would be in them.

So the Holy Spirit was with the Disciples at the time of Jesus teaching, eh?

That is what Christ stated, is it not?

 

(John 16:7) " Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

That you are unaware of the distinction between the ministries the Lord is speaking about is clear.

Your argument here would demand that the Holy Spirit was never in the world before He came as the Comforter.

I'm not sure you understand how ridiculous this argument is.

 

How could The Comforter (The Holy Spirit) be with the disciples.....

I already told you...He is omnipresent.

What you are confused about is that this is in reference to the particular ministry that the Comforter would perform in this Age. Prior to this, we can see the Spirit's ministry towards man. Here are a few examples to confirm this:

Acts 7:51 King James Version (KJV)

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Hebrews 3:7-11 King James Version (KJV)

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

We can go back to the Old Testament and see, such as we saw in the anointing of David, as well as in the departure of the Holy Spirit from King Saul...

1 Samuel 16:14King James Version (KJV)

14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

That in view is not the eternal and internal indwelling promised here...

Ezekiel 36:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is why so many fall into the error of the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachings/teachers) and embrace heresy such as loss of salvation and free will.

when Jesus just told them that He MUST go away FOR the Holy Spirit to come AND that Jesus will SEND The Holy Spirit personally?

Note that the Lord states...

John 14:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

...and then ask yourself, why is the Comforter "another" comforter? If you need help figuring that out, let me know.

Where is The Holy Spirit @ the moment Jesus is speaking to the Disciples here in John 16?

He is with them. Is the text there "ambiguous" to you? lol

Quite the logical boondoggle you got going here.

Not sure why it is so confusing for you, though your confusion about the Holy Spirit is the likely reason.

Continued...

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

=========================================================================================

 

 

I'm done playing your Fallacious Games Ranger.  My rebuttals to you are clear, concise, and quite easily refute your points; systematically and comprehensively. 

 

Regards

[S.T. Ranger]

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

1. ...and we know that he cannot do that as long as the Two Witnesses are alive...

Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)

11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

2. ...which indicates that the two forty-two month periods are not concurrent.

1. Why?

It's pretty simple: We know the Antichrist does not establish the Abomination that makes Desolate until the mid-point of the Tribulation, and seeing that the Two Witnesses are killed after their ministry, and that their death takes place during the Second Woe simply points to a conclusion that the Tribulation has been going on for some time.

Unless you want to suggest that the Third Woe and the Seven Vial Judgments all take place on the last day of the Tribulation.

Want to do that?

Or do you want to cede the point that if both are given forty two month ministries and that the Two Witnesses are killed prior to all of the Judgments taking place then the logical conclusion is that the forty-two month ministry of the Two Witnesses takes place in the first half of the Tribulation, and that the beast's reign of power which is spoken of here...

Revelation 13:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

...pertains to the last half of the Tribulation.

Please show "Specifically" why The Two Witnesses and the Abomination of Desolation can't happen concurrently.

I guess you missed this...

The Restrainer is taken out of the way. Let's stick to what the text actually states:

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In view is not the Rapture, but the Tribulation. They are concerned that the Day of the Lord has begun. Paul writes to assure them that it cannot be in process because he has already told them that there must be a falling away first, and the man of sin, the Antichrist be revealed. Their concerns about having missed the Rapture are unfounded, because if the Rapture had taken place...then the falling away would have already taken place as well, and the man of sin revealed.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is what the man of sin will do. And we see that in Revelation:

Revelation 13:4-8 King James Version (KJV)

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now the question is...can Antichrist do these things while the Two Witnesses are alive? The obvious answer is no. The Two Witnesses also minister for forty two months, which establishes the first half of the Tribulation.

We know by the teaching of Daniel, Christ, and Paul...that Antichrist will stand in the Holy Place...

Matthew 24:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

...and we know that he cannot do that as long as the Two Witnesses are alive...

Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)

11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

...which indicates that the two forty-two month periods are not concurrent.

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

So let's recap: Paul writes to them to assure them that the Day of the Lord has not already begun, hence the Rapture cannot possibly have taken place. There must be a falling away, and the man of sin revealed, which cannot happen until the Restrainer, not the Church...is taken out of the way.

Not out of the world.

...?

Please show why they are Mutually Exclusive?

Because if the Two Witnesses begin their ministry in the middle of the Week, after the Abomination of Desolation, then the Tribulation ends with their deaths, which is during the Second Woe.

Because you sure haven't provided anything here.

If you had quoted me in detail you wouldn't be wasting time with false statements like this.

2. What on Earth is this?

Are you saying the first half of Daniel's 70th Week is not "Concurrent" with the 2nd half of Daniels 70th Week?

Please look up the word.

And I quote...

Words, They Mean Things.

Continued...

Edited December 22, 2014 by S.T. Ranger

[S.T. Ranger]

 

 

=========================================================================================

 

 

I'm done playing your Fallacious Games Ranger.  My rebuttals to you are clear, concise, and quite easily refute your points; systematically and comprehensively. 

 

Regards

That's a good choice for you my friend.

God bless.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

 

======================================================================================================================

 

 

 

Enoch 2021.....   It is impossible to be "A Christian".....before Pentecost.  Can't explain it any simpler.  Any attempt to refute, is Non-Sequitur (Fallacy).

 

 

Impossible you say?

 

Mark 10:27  And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

For God?

Luke 1:37  For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Really?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

I think not.

 

 

This is yet another "Quote Mine" (Fallacy)---taking part of a passage out of it's original context.

 

 

In Scripture, there are Two "Contexts" that must align:  1. The Local, and the Most Important......2.  The Whole Counsel of GOD.

 

So lets put "your theory" to the TEST:

 

1.  Is it possible for satan to be Saved?

 

2.  Is it possible for GOD to Learn?

 

3.  Is it possible for GOD to Lie?

 

4.  Is it possible for GOD to break HIS Promises?

 

5.  Is it Possible for the New Jerusalem to come down from Heaven before Jesus Christ's Second Coming?

 

If your answer is "NO" to each question....Then "your theory" is Kaput and is Empirical Evidence of a Quote Mine.

 

 

It is clearly Impossible for someone to be a Christian....before what makes a Christian "a Christian" (The Gospel), has ever taken Place.

 

It's logically Tantamount to claiming.... you're a Hubble Telescope Technician before Space Flight or a Software Engineer in the 1800's.  Painfully Non-Sequitur (Fallacy) 

[S.T. Ranger]

Do you have the 2 Witnesses preaching when the ac makes the Covenant with The Many (Start of Daniel's 70th Week)??

Their ministry begins at the beginning of the Tribulation. Antichrist's activities are not distinctly known except what we might speculate in regards to what we are told. I think in the first half we will see Antichrist emerge on the scene in a political role which will address the distress taking place due to the opening of the Seal Judgments.

You say that it is at this time that Antichrist makes the covenant, and I would agree with that, because the covenant Antichrist effects is broken at the mid-point of the Tribulation.

Now we consult Chapter 12:

Factually Incorrect.

Biblically accurate and irrefutable. lol

So now you are going to say that the Antichrist does not withdraw his support of the covenant at the midpoint of the Tribulation?

Amazing.

And you Consult Matthew 24 to confirm.

It is clear that I consulted Chapter 12...even in your quote of what I said above, lol.

And you did not bother to address that.

There is no "Tribulation".

There is. Just because you want to play semantic maneuvers because you think you have a point doesn't change the fact that most people, when the word Tribulation is used, thinks immediately of the Seventieth Week of Daniel.

When we discuss the Catching Away we use the term Rapture, so as not to confuse people who may not be familiar with the term.

The Covenant is Broken AND the abomination of desolation takes place in the midst of Daniel's 70th Week and Begins the "Great Tribulation"....

Nothing I said comes into conflict with this.

(Matthew 24:15-21) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) {16} Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {17} Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: {18} Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. {19} And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! {20} But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: {21} For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

"For then shall be great tribulation": When? ....

Now back up and put a sunny day spin on what else takes place before that.

I gave you the Scripture, and this is where I "consulted" Matthew 24. Your contextomy is deplorable, my friend.

Here it is again:

Take a look at the Lord's description:

Matthew 24:4-8 King James Version (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Compare that with the Seal Judgments.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation..." When does this Occur? In the midst of Daniels 70th Week....3.5 years after the ac makes a Covenant with the Many.

What is particularly confusing about this?

Since you are the one that is confused, perhaps you can tell me.

For the first half, we see the judgments begin to unfold, and while I believe that Antichrist begins his career at the start of this, we also have to follow the events as described in Revelation, which begin with the Seal Judgments, which are unleashed as these Seals are opened.

Begging The Question (Fallacy) ----

Don't you get tired of having to resort to this type of response. Wouldn't it be better to get your doctrine in order and not have to use it. And worse...

...commit it?

assuming the very thing you're trying to prove.

No assumptions can be shown in what I have posted.

Who said the Seals begin the First Half of Daniels 70th Week?

Consider:

Matthew 24:4-8 King James Version (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Revelation 6 King James Version (KJV)

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Seems like a very good bet that the Tribulation will begin with the opening of the Seals.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

The Seals look like the "beginning of sorrows" to me....

And these events are distinguished by the Lord from the time of great tribulation, which corresponds precisely to the beast being empowered for forty two months.

(Matthew 24:6-8) " And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. {7} For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. {8} All these are the beginning of sorrows."

Funny, but I quoted this same passage yet you did not bother to respond to it.

Even funnier that you would deny this as part of the tribulation.

The Four Horseman/ Seals:

1. The White Horse: Went forth conquering, an to conquer.

2. The Red Horse: to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."

"Wars and Rumors of Wars" and "Nation shall Rise against Nation".

3. Black Horse: "A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny.

"Famine".

4. Pale Horse: "Puke Green": to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

"War", "Famine", "Pestilence"/Disease (Beasts of the Earth----Includes Microbes)

Relevance to what has thus far been discussed?

(Revelation 6:12) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"

"Earthquake"

Nowhere in Daniel (Or anywhere in Scripture) does it say that the first half of the Week contains these events.

No but it does say in Matthew 24.

Again, you will need to improve your technique in debate so as not to be viewed as guilty of contextomy.

Could they happen then, SURELY.

Oh, if you say it's okay...lol.

Is it reasonable to Assume they do? I think so.....But that's just an Assumption.

It's not an assumption, it is simply a conclusion drawn from the available and relevant passages dealing with the Tribulation.

However and Moreover,

You might as well as have thrown in a "therefore" while you were at it.

that's not the Point; The Point is, you're trying to make these "Tribulation".

Like I said, put a sunny day spin on it if you like, but I cannot see how this...

Matthew 24:4-8 King James Version (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

...could not be viewed as taking place in the Tribulation. The similarities of what the Lord states will take place and the events described in the Seal Judgments are amazing...not to mention the fact that it is not just the Seal Judgments, but up into the Second Woe that we can distinguish events in the first half.

You're Equivocating (Fallacy) with the word "Tribulation"

And it seems that charging fallacy is your last resort response when you cannot answer the issues being dealt with.

Again, Tribulation is a term used to speak of Daniel's Seventieth Week. Some distinguish the first half as the Tribulation, and the last half as the Great Tribulation, based on the Lord's teaching in Matthew 24.

Me, I do not. I think that the distinction that the last half will be worse is all that is in view, but I don't see anything wrong with the Distinction either. I do not think the Lord is creating a specific term or name for the last half of this period, but it cannot be argued that He does make the distinction.

and you can't support just "Tribulation" from Scripture.

Nor would I try to, just as I wouldn't try to support "just Rapture" from Scripture. There are several raptures which have to be distinguished, so that is why the use of Tribulation should be taken to refer to the Tribulation in general without distinction to either half.

Allow me to Illustrate your Equivocation Fallacy....

(Matthew 13:21) " Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."

Is Jesus speaking to the first half of Daniel's 70th Week here? The Whole Week? Do the 4 Horseman/Seals get released here?

What you are illustrating has nothing to do with me.

When you can get to the point where you can deal with the subject and text which has been offered rather than deflecting with false arguments...let me know.

(Romans 2:9) "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;"

How about Paul here? Will every soul that doeth evil receive a personal Daniel's 70th Week and 4 Horseman/Seals Judgement?

(Romans 5:3) "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;"

This says "tribulations". Is Paul referring to Many 70 Weeks of Daniel? How many 4 Horseman and 6 Seals will we Glory in?

These are not Tribulation passages, thus your argument is irrelevant.

Equivocation (Fallacy): The same word is used with two different meanings.

So show me where I have used a passage not dealing with the Tribulation where I have used the word Tribulation.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

PRO TIP: Fallacies are Fallacious

Did a PRO teach you that or did you work that out all by yourself? lol

Hey, I wanna try, how about this one: Oceans are wet. Except when they dry up.

Semantics. "Tribulation" is certainly a proper designation for Daniel's Seventieth Week, just as "Rapture" is an acceptable term for the "Catching Away." Just as "Communion" is an acceptable term for Communion, and "Christmas" is an acceptable term to speak of the Lord's birth.

Nope not even close,

I agree, not close, exact.

it's called Equivocation and it's a Logical Fallacy

No, it's simply accepted terminology used in most conversations about the Seventieth Week.

(as I've already shown you). Then just Parrot the Fallacy and "erroneous" Assumption.

Again, what you are showing has nothing to do with me and hardly answers the points that have been raised.

And your attempted force analogy with "Rapture", "Communion" and "Christmas" is Non-Sequitur (Fallacy) Cherry on Top.

Usually I only have to deal with nonsense like this, psychobabble mumbo jumbo arguments...when I deal with atheists.

btw, "Rapture" is referenced in the Latin Vulgate.

Oh, so you do understand what I am saying. Great. So why don't you use the word rapturos or another latin variant?

I'll tell you why, my friend: because no-one would have a clue as to what you are talking about.

And by the way, the Greek is Harpazo. And by the way, show me Communion in the Bible, to further illustrate that you have defeated this point. Show me Christmas.

Words, They Mean Things.

All communication needs to be understood. Thus we use the familiar terminology even if it has not a Scriptural root, because some people confuse rather easily, and we want to try to limit the confusion.

However, when we see that Antichrist, according to Daniel, is active in the first half, bringing about a covenant which allows for daily sacrifice, which is balanced with the fact that we cannot logically make the Antichrist's reign and the Two Witnesses' ministry run concurrent.

If the "ac" and the "Two Witnesses" ministry cannot "logically" run concurrently, then how does the beast (aka: ac) KILL the Two Witnesses??? ...

Again, look up concurrently.

The answer to your question is seen in the text itself:

Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The answer to your question is that when they are killed...their 3 1/2 year ministry will have ended.

(Revelation 11:7) "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

The answer was right there.

Define Logically....?

I did define it in the comments I have made in answer to your questions.

it is Daniel, the Lord, Paul, and John's teaching that makes the first half of the Tribulation tribulation.

And....? Go ahead post the Scriptures....?

Already did that.

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

You are creating false arguments.

And.....? Go ahead and provide the evidence of this;

It is rather simple: I never denied nor implied that I disagreed with...

Can't be. And I'm assuming you're still considering the "First Half" something that it's not. As mentioned, The "Great Tribulation" begins in the Midst of the Week with the Abomination of Desolation and lasts for...

"Time and Times, and a Dividing of Time": Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; "1260 Days": Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 ; "42 Months": Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

The Two Witnesses are here...

(Revelation 11:3) "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

Secondly, this does not show that the two periods are concurrent.

Otherwise, it remains a Baseless Assertion (Fallacy).

Incorrect. It is a false argument.

Actually, I never mentioned Ezekiel 38, so if you continue to create false arguments and then answering them I will have to refrain from engaging you in discussion and debate. Respond to what I have said, and do not include what you want me to have said.

Ahhh, here's the proof.

Agreed. I do prove that you make irrelevant arguments to the points I have made. Glad we can agree on that.

Well there Ranger, you didn't have to literally mention Ezekiel 38 ....your position is tied to Ezekiel 39,

No, Enoch...it is tied to Revelation 19, just as it is stated in my post. lol

You want to show me how Ezekiel 40 is tied to my point?

Ezekiel 39 is relevant to the Supper of the Great God referred to in Revelation 19.

Ezekiel 38 is not.

The reason for this is that both Revelation 19 and Ezekiel 38 can be seen to have events that take place when the Lord returns in view. While you may not see Ezekiel 39 as a reference to the same event, that doesn't mean you can deny it without showing why it isn't the same event.

But if you want to show me where Israel's enemies were defeated and the cleanup described in ch.39 took place, I would be greatly interested.

which by proxy brings Ezekiel 38 With It!

So we have to include Matthew 23 every time we reference ch.24? We have to include Isaiah 64 every time we correlate Isaiah 65 to the Tribulation?

Continued...

[S.T. Ranger]

Why... You mentioned The Great Supper from Ezekiel 39 which is the culmination of Ezekiel 38-39 (The GOG/Magog Invasion/ WAR).

This is simply deflection. And your following statements show that.

ERGO....Your attempted Strawman Assertion ("false argument") is a Non-Sequitur Fallacy.

Have you ever bothered to make sure you are not guilty of what you charge others with?

Enoch 2021.....

And can you please show anywhere in Ezekiel 38-39, These....

THE LAMB or The LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH?? Then: satan/ ac/ False Prophet/ Mark of the beast/ Martyrs/ 2 Witnesses.....Preaching, Killed, then Resurrected....rising to Heaven with everyone watching /Mystery Babylon/ Babylon Proper...being destroyed/ Tribulation Saints/ 144,00 Sealed/ 7 Churches/ 7 Seals/ 7 Trumpets/ 7 Bowls/ Locusts....tormenting men 5 Months/ Signs in sun, moon, stars, heaven/ Bottomless Pit/ Michael Casting satan out of Heaven with 1/3 of his angels/ 24 Elders/ 4 Living Creatures with six wings about them/ The Four Horseman/ Wormwood/ The 4 Angels loosed from the great river Euphrates/ Army of two hundred thousand thousand/ The Temple of GOD/ The Ark of HIS Testament/ Blasphemy against GOD/ Abomination of Desolation/ Deadly Head Wound...then Healed/ Image of the Beast that came to Life/ Mount Sion/ Flying Angel Preaching the Gospel/ Angels with Sharp Sickles/ Vine and Grapes/ Great Winepress/ Blood 1600 Furlongs up to Horses Bridles/ Grievous Sores upon Men/ sea as blood of a dead man and ALL sea-life Died/ Sun Scorching men with Fire/ Angel Standing on the Sun/ men gnawing their tongues in pain...No Repentance/ Frogs out of the mouth of dragon, people with the mark....cast into the Lake of Fire/ Marriage Supper/ Wife....arrayed in fine linen, white and clean/ White Horse/ Vesture dipped in Blood....written on the side: KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Ranger.....

1. Can you show me in Isaiah 53 that Christ is the Son of the Living God?

2. Ridiculous argument, my friend, I am sorry you wasted your time posting all of this.

1. No, why would I?

Because that is what you are demanding of me, lol.

Amazing.

2. Why, didn't I add any logical fallacies so it would make sense to you?

You have indeed, lol.

Have you ever read Ezekiel 38-39?

Please. lol

Did you know that Chapter 39 is speaking to the events of Chapter 38....

Have you ever read these chapters, lol.

(Ezekiel 38:1-2) "And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, {2} Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,"

(Ezekiel 39:1) "Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:"

See the connection??

So is this the same group in Revelation?

Enoch 2021....We already discussed the "Tribulation" issue.

Ranger....Just because you post something that you think is true does not either make it true or...end the discussion. "I have spoken!" may work with some antagonists, my friend, but if you want to get into this in seriousness, be prepared and be expected to present a biblical support for what you are teaching.

That I know is True.

I don't think you do. Not really.

And I already posted Matthew 24:15 showing you.

Yet you did not bother to repond to the Scripture I gave which preceded this.

Please post the Scriptures "Specifically" denoting Daniel's 70th Week (or any part of the week for that matter) as just "Tribulation"?

Just as you changed things around with your analogy of John in Mississippi, lol, even so you change the context here: show me where I denied "great tribulation," please. I explained in detail what I mean when I use the term Tribulation.

This is simply another false argument. And it is necessary for you to offer itup because you are unable to address the points without deflection.

The Burden of Proof is on YOU (Shift the Burden of Proof----Logical Fallacy).

So go back and read the answers already addressing the false arguments you raise.

I can't disprove a negative (You Conjuring "Tribulation").

There is no negative to disprove: "Tribulation" is an accepted term used for Daniel's Seventieth Week. I have always used this to refer to the period as a whole. I explained the distinction some make using the term "Great Tribulation."

What negative?

It's Tantamount to me saying "there are 3 Toed Gnomes behind the Crab Nebula throwing pixie dust in a Black Hole that's responsible for Dark Matter", then asking you to disprove it!

But it doesn't detract from the fact that the arguments you present are false, you are guilty of what you charge myself and others of on a regular basis. I mean really, every other word is fallacy with you, lol.

God bless.