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3 hours ago, Reformed Baptist said:

I would be very interested in how you could argue that from 'a purely logical standpoint' it makes no sense. I think you can only do that if you redefine the term logic, logic is simply an argument where one can establish reasonable coherence between the evidence and the conclusion.  So, setting the bible aside for a moment, lets look at the evidence, consider that child - who teaches that child to cry selfishly cry for attention? Who teaches that child to tell it's first lie? In short, does that child just have some sort of innate tendency towards sinful behavior?

Let's put it another way, does that child have an innate belief and love for God, or do we look for a conversion experience?

The answers to those leads us to conclude that the child is born a sinner, and therefore we have to look for the reason for that, and as the Bible explains that such 'brokenness' is a result of Adam sin (Rom 5:12) - I have to ask how, logically speaking, such a conclusion seems far fetched?  

What else makes sense? What other, logical, alternative is there?

You see my friend, if we apply your argument logically then we have to that similarly one might argue that it makes no sense that someone could die 2000 years ago in payment for your sin. Which is, of course, the very center of the Christian faith.

How come Christians have no problem saying 'through the actions of one man many are made friends of God' but some have a problem sayings'through the actions of one man many are made enemies of God.' Surely if we apply logical properly we would have to admit that if one is true to other has to be true. If God has dealt with us through Adam, then logically he can deal with us through the second Adam? However if God hasn't dealt with us through Adam, then he cannot deal with us through the second Adam, and we are left without hope. 

Let me ask you this, if you read a story about the police showing up to the hospital and telling a woman about to have a baby that her baby will be executed upon birth because of the actions of the woman's great, great, great grandfather, would you go, "well, that makes perfect sense"?  I know I would not.

The difference in regards to Jesus is that people have the choice to accept that gift or not, we do not have the choice of being born sinners.

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1 hour ago, Out of the Shadows said:

Let me ask you this, if you read a story about the police showing up to the hospital and telling a woman about to have a baby that her baby will be executed upon birth because of the actions of the woman's great, great, great grandfather, would you go, "well, that makes perfect sense"?  I know I would not.

 

That is not a valid comparison - you are talking about punishing a child because of another person's crime of which that child is innocent. No one is punished simply because Adam sinned, we are punished for own sin. The comparison would be more like, suggesting that a child deserves to be punished because that child has followed the mothers great, great, great grandfather in reepating his failure. 

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The difference in regards to Jesus is that people have the choice to accept that gift or not, we do not have the choice of being born sinners.

 

Again you are ignoring the point, if God doesn't impute guilt through Adam, how can he impute guilt through Christ. 

Now, putting aside ill conceived 'logical' arguments let's get to scripture: 

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 

My friend, I say this with the utmost respect, but it needs to be said, the doctrine you seem to implying here has a name, it is called pelagianism, and it has been around for a long, long time and it is also been thoroughly refuted - we are born with a fallen nature, and we all stand condemned under God's justice, because we are of Adam and because we sin. And unless we accept that then the message of grace makes no sense and has no foundation, as Rom 5:11-21 explains. 

The remarkable thing is not that people go to heaven the remarkable thing is that  God saves some from hell. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Reformed Baptist said:

That is not a valid comparison - you are talking about punishing a child because of another person's crime of which that child is innocent. No one is punished simply because Adam sinned, we are punished for own sin. The comparison would be more like, suggesting that a child deserves to be punished because that child has followed the mothers great, great, great grandfather in reepating his failure. 

 Going back to your original statement that started this discussion..."It helps to remember that actually every single person born is deserving of hell from the moment of their conception"  What has a baby 1 moment after it's conception done to be deserving of hell?   What sin has the embryo in the womb committed to deserve to be punished for all eternity in hell?  

 

11 minutes ago, Reformed Baptist said:

Ih the utmost respect, but it needs to be said, the doctrine you seem to implying here has a name, it is called pelagianism, and it has been around for a long, long time and it is also been thoroughly refuted - we are born with a fallen nature, and we all stand condemned under God's justice, because we are of Adam and because we sin. And unless we accept that then the message of grace makes no sense and has no foundation, as Rom 5:11-21 explains. 

 

 

I am not espousing any doctrine, nor trying to make any doctrine.  As a human being I look at the above statement about being deserving of hell, and think it just does not seem fair.  Again, I am not saying it is not what the bible teaches or any such thing, I am just pointing out it is something that I, and lots of other people, struggle with.  I guess I am envious of you that you can see the baby in the womb and think "yep, that baby deserves hell" and not be bothered by it.  I personally cannot and I have struggle to explain it to the unsaved who do not understand why God would make things as they are. 

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2Jesus called a little child to stand among them.3“Truly I tell you, He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.   Matt 18:3

Little babies or little children are not held accountable for the sins of their fathers and they are not deserving of hell,God is just,,,,,,those little INNOCENT babies & children have inherited a sinful nature (through Adam) they will indeed go in,when they reach the age of accountability to decide to choose right or wrong,this is a continual struggle because of that sinful nature,they will go on to choose "wrong" at some time throughout life.....& then they can choose one day to accept Jesus,they can then walk in Spirit & in Truth & live in Gods Righteousness because of His Grace....

Is it fair? Well,I don't think fairness & justice is the same think,I know God is Just,I am not sure He is concerned about what we think about whether or not He is being fair(in our terms from a finite mind).......                                  To God be the Glory                                     With love-in Christ,Kwik

As far as the Topic here......it is a matter of urgency to spread the Gospel to every creature in every nation...........Praise Jesus!

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17 hours ago, Out of the Shadows said:

 Going back to your original statement that started this discussion..."It helps to remember that actually every single person born is deserving of hell from the moment of their conception"  What has a baby 1 moment after it's conception done to be deserving of hell?   What sin has the embryo in the womb committed to deserve to be punished for all eternity in hell?  

 

 

It has been conceived outside of a relationship with God, which that child will go on to demonstrate throughout it's life, and hence it will die (death is the 'wage' of sin. 

 

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I am not espousing any doctrine, nor trying to make any doctrine.  

Actually that is precisely what you are doing, in stating what you struggle to believe you are stating a position on a subject - you are espousing a doctrine. 

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As a human being I look at the above statement about being deserving of hell, and think it just does not seem fair.

 Friend, I do not if you believe yourself a Christian or not, however what makes you think your human concept of fairness comes into the equation? Is the world a fair place? Now, even more pertinent to what you have just said is the fact that Paul actually anticipates this exact response in the book of Romans: 

Romans 9:20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory.

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Again, I am not saying it is not what the bible teaches or any such thing,

Indeed you don't seem to be engaging with the text of scripture at all - which seems strange to me on a Christian forum

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I am just pointing out it is something that I, and lots of other people, struggle with.  I guess I am envious of you that you can see the baby in the womb and think "yep, that baby deserves hell" and not be bothered by it.  

I am sorry, what on earth leads you to think that I am not bothered by it - didn't I speak about my personal discomfort earlier in this thread. However I'm an adult, and so I cannot afford to simply think with my emotions, I have to employ my intellect. My emotional response (and I speak as a father) is not a good enough reason for me to ignore what the bible teaches - however, what that emotional response does lead to is the desire to see my children saved from that end :D

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I personally cannot and I have struggle to explain it to the unsaved who do not understand why God would make things as they are. 

Consider Luke 13:1-5 when Jesus talks to people who are struggling to understand why things are the way they are, he makes it very personal - he tells them that they need to repent. 

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17 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Little babies or little children are not held accountable for the sins of their fathers and they are not deserving of hell,God is just,,,,,,those little INNOCENT babies & children have inherited a sinful nature (through Adam) they will indeed go in,when they reach the age of accountability to decide to choose right or wrong,this is a continual struggle because of that sinful nature,they will go on to choose "wrong" at some time throughout life.....& then they can choose one day to accept Jesus,they can then walk in Spirit & in Truth & live in Gods Righteousness because of His Grace....

Is it fair? Well,I don't think fairness & justice is the same think,I know God is Just,I am not sure He is concerned about what we think about whether or not He is being fair(in our terms from a finite mind).......                                  To God be the Glory                                     With love-in Christ,Kwik

As far as the Topic here......it is a matter of urgency to spread the Gospel to every creature in every nation...........Praise Jesus!

So, if a child dies before the age of accountability do you suggest that the child is saved?

That is, on one level, an appealing thought - but actually when you sit down and analyse it then it becomes incredibly troublesome! I am a father, and so, if there is an age of accountability,  then I have a real problem - do I allow my children to go on living beyond that 'age' so that they loose that default status they are born into - I love them so much and I would hate to see them in hell, but here I have a means to guarantee they will be in heaven forever - all I need to do is prevent them reaching the age of accountability! 

How very glad I am that this is not actually the case and that salvation only comes through faith and repentance - how very glad I am that God has not laid such a burden upon any of, as the age of accountability :D

 

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People have been filtering into perdition not only since the time of Christ, but since before the Step Pyramid of Djoser, and even before the Flood. I won't speculate how many years that might be, but h.sapiens is thought by some to have achieved full behavioral modernity something like 50,000 years ago. Whether that extends clear on back to Adam and Eve I have no clue; but just think: if it does, then Cain and others from his era have been down in the netherworld all this time.

 

It's difficult for the human mind to appreciate 50,000 years. I've been on the Earth for just 72, and I've noticed that my childhood is so far in the past to me now as to seem more like a fantasy than a memory. But you know; when you're talking about eternity, 50,000 years isn't even a drop in the bucket. If it were a drop in the bucket, it would be a bucket with no bottom; which is roughly akin to the futility of a gnat attempting to drink up the Atlantic ocean. It would also be akin to Forrest Gump thinking he could fill a sieve with water faster by dipping it into a bucket instead of using the tap.

 

But just think: time stands still in hell: it's for the now; it's an existence. People who arrived there yesterday didn't begin doing time in jail like Lindsay Lohan expecting to get out some day; nor is perdition a temporary tour of duty like shipping out to Afghanistan. No, people in hell are in it as perpetual residents; they're in a rut.

 

They go year, after year, after year, after year, with no relief from the pain and discomfort: no vacations, no recreation, no reading materials, and no hobbies-- there's absolutely nothing to do but reminisce and writhe in fire. The mental atrophy, and the boredom that must result from that kind of mindless existence is beyond estimation.

 

In life, everybody enjoys God's blessings; even the really bad people. We're all breathing fresh air, basking in sunshine, drinking cool water, savoring tasty foods, listening to birds chirp, star gazing at night, throwing snow balls at each other in winter, river rafting, fishing, snow skiing, tending gardens, pruning shrubs, greeting friends during the holidays, spending days with grandkids; and all that sort of thing. In the Bible's hell, there are no blessings of any kind at all: only perpetual sadness, vexation, despair, and want.

 

In hell's unruly society; it's reasonable to expect quarrels, bickering, hard feelings, vendettas, rivalry, selfishness, insensitivity, irritation, aggravation, and ugly words exchanged between people. Is there really any good reason to be courteous and/or respect your fellow man's human rights in the Bible's hell; or to be kind, forgiving, affable, genial, courteous, cordial, charitable, altruistic, tolerant, generous, and patient? I was once discussing the netherworld with a co-worker and he remarked: "Hell won't be so bad; I'll have plenty of friends down there". Yes, he probably will have lots of friends in hell; but I really don't think he should count on them being friendly.

 

And the din: think of the volume of noise down there with all the wailing and sobbing, and the screams, shrieks, yelps, howls, and gnashing teeth. I get rather irritated by the behavior of late night comedy audiences. I can only imagine how much worse I'd be annoyed in hell with its thousands and millions of people making all that kind of racket.

 

But just imagine bringing with you a craving for tobacco with none available. Or longing for a cocktail with no liquor in sight. A desire for music, with no way to produce it. A skill for writing, with no pen and paper. Yearning for a walk out in nature, with no world to do it in.

 

People in the Bible's hell will never again savor a sea breeze, sit in the shade of a tree, take deep breaths of mountain-fresh air, play at sports, hear a bird chirp, see a sunset, watch a lunar eclipse, jog in the park, strum a guitar, enjoy a Christmas dinner with loved ones; nor make little pigs of themselves gobbling barbecued spare ribs and corn on the 4th of July.

 

Sports and recreation are gone: no more World Series, no more Super Bowl, no more Olympics, no more Las Vegas, no more Indian casinos, no more lottery, no more Lego World, no more Sea World, no more NASCAR, no more golf, no more surfing, et al.

 

No baths, no showers, no sleep, no TV, no radio, no iPods, no computers, no Twitter, no texting, no FaceBook, no Instagram, no YouTube, no MySpace, no internet, no clean sheets, no breakfast, no lunch, and no dinner. No snacks, no gum, no candy, no flowers, no parks, no rivers, no snow, no seasons, no picnics, no malls, no fast food, no trades, no careers, no trendy fashions, no jewelry, no cosmetics, no concerts, no operas, and no hobbies; absolutely nothing of this world that brings people the pleasures and the satisfactions of just being alive.

 

No pets are allowed in the Bible's hell and no flowers or vegetation of any kind. The absence of birds, fish, and animals of course precludes the citizens of hell ever again spending a day at the zoo. The one advantage of the lack of pets and vegetation in hell is the absence of fleas and allergies. I suppose you could say that's at least one good thing about it. There's a bright side to everything I guess; even to that place.

 

CRUNCH UPDATE: 4 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 223,240 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 4, 2016.

 

/

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2 hours ago, Reformed Baptist said:

 

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2 hours ago, Reformed Baptist said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Reformed Baptist said:

 

Actually that is precisely what you are doing, in stating what you struggle to believe you are stating a position on a subject - you are espousing a doctrine.  

No, I am not espousing a doctrine because I am not questioning the biblical correctness of the topic, I am explaining my human feelings about it.  If i were espousing a doctrine I would be saying that your view of the bible is wrong, but I never did that.  So, please quit with the passive aggressive insults.

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Friend, I do not if you believe yourself a Christian or not, however what makes you think your human concept of fairness comes into the equation? Is the world a fair place? Now, even more pertinent to what you have just said is the fact that Paul actually anticipates this exact response in the book of Romans: 

Romans 9:20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory.

 

Because I am a human, and I have human emotions, they are part of what make me who I am.  

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Indeed you don't seem to be engaging with the text of scripture at all - which seems strange to me on a Christian forum

Because I am not questioning the scripture, just speaking of a personal struggle.  I have read the scriptures, I know what they say.  Sometimes people just need to be able to talk about their struggles without judgement or being told to read the verse for the 100th time.   This attitude is why I no longer go to any church, we are never to speak of our weaknesses, never talk about struggles, we are to put on our happy church faces and just nod and "amen" every now and then.  

For the last time, I am not ignoring anything, I am not questioning what is in the Bible, I am speaking of personal feelings...you do have those too, right? 

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3 hours ago, Reformed Baptist said:

So, if a child dies before the age of accountability do you suggest that the child is saved?

That is, on one level, an appealing thought - but actually when you sit down and analyse it then it becomes incredibly troublesome! I am a father, and so, if there is an age of accountability,  then I have a real problem - do I allow my children to go on living beyond that 'age' so that they loose that default status they are born into - I love them so much and I would hate to see them in hell, but here I have a means to guarantee they will be in heaven forever - all I need to do is prevent them reaching the age of accountability! 

How very glad I am that this is not actually the case and that salvation only comes through faith and repentance - how very glad I am that God has not laid such a burden upon any of, as the age of accountability :D

 

I can imagine that what you believe would create a pastoral counseling nightmare.   Imagine telling grieving young parents that their infant died and must have gone to hell because God would not have allowed him/her to die if he had predestined that child for salvation.

That's one reason why Calvinism is false teaching and a purely human construct.

Edited to add:   One of the joys of Christians is to know that death is not the end but the beginning and that we will be reunited with our saved loved ones in eternity.   To argue that a baby, which is incapable of knowing right from wrong, incapable of being convicted by Holy Spirit and incapable of an intelligent, conscious faith in God is potentially condemned by God to Hell violates God's own sense of justice.  

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