It is not in the Bible ?

[Hoddie]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

She was a sinner like as we all or God is a liar which do you prefer?

Rom 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:10
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
KJV
as you can't have it both ways either the children of Adam
are as God Word says or ... you are calling God a liar!
Love, Steven

Hello Steven, and thanks for your responce, and no, I am not, or would I ever call God a liar. And quite frankly, I find it quite disheartening that you would accuse me of such a thing, and then end your post with "Love.... Steven?" Not to worry though, all is forgiven. However, I would have to disagree with your interpretation of Romans 3:23. I will agree that Rom.3:23 does indeed say that all have sinned, but does that mean there are no exceptions? I don't think so. Jesus clearly is an exception,would you not agree? He was fully human and yet did not sin. What about babies and very young children who pass away? How about abortion? Do you beleive that those in the womb are babies? God seems to think so. (Ps.139:13;Jer.1:5) What of those that were born severly mentaly handicapped? How could they or the other examples I gave possibly sin? I mean, in your interpretation of this passage, all does mean all, does it not? So you see Steven, with all do respect, clearly one can see that St. Paul is making a general statement that admits some obvious exceptions. Would you agree?

　

　

Peace

[enoob57]

6 hours ago, Hoddie said:

Hello Steven, and thanks for your responce, and no, I am not, or would I ever call God a liar. And quite frankly, I find it quite disheartening that you would accuse me of such a thing, and then end your post with "Love.... Steven?" I would, if I were you, reread what I have written and you will find no such accusation! Your interpretive skills on written material is quite lacking and you need to work on it! As God has chosen such to communicate to us...

 

 

Not to worry though, all is forgiven. However, I would have to disagree with your interpretation of Romans 3:23. I will agree that Rom.3:23 does indeed say that all have sinned, but does that mean there are no exceptions? I don't think so. Jesus clearly is an exception,would you not agree? He was fully human and yet did not sin. What about babies and very young children who pass away? How about abortion? Do you beleive that those in the womb are babies? God seems to think so. (Ps.139:13;Jer.1:5) What of those that were born severly mentaly handicapped? How could they or the other examples I gave possibly sin? I mean, in your interpretation of this passage, all does mean all, does it not? So you see Steven, with all do respect, clearly one can see that St. Paul is making a general statement that admits some obvious exceptions. Would you agree?

　

　

Peace

As for the rest of your post you seem to hold The righteous God accountable for the sin we ourselves have chosen... you are looking out into a fallen world and trying to reason from sin that is in it. This is a mistake for God says sin only brings forth confusion and nothing else ~ hence the confusion in your post above trying to rationalize all that you are seeing in the world of which we began in as sinners! This is how the Bible platforms our understanding:
1. The accountability issue with children seems to be an undefined factor with God...
2. All is all and is clearly defined in Scripture that is why I gave other verse 'no one'... directly referring to Mary and all other descended from Adam!
3. Jesus does not enter into the equation for His Father was God and His body was from Adam thus it is written
Heb 4:15-16
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
KJV
4. The foundation of God's Word can and will exercise the confusion from our minds but you must be willing to let go of first born error...
Love, Steven

[Ezra]

16 hours ago, Hoddie said:

Catholic teaching, coming both from Scripture and from the Tradition received from the Church Fathers, is in agreement with these Church Fathers:

This still does not address the issue that nowhere in the New Testament is Mary elevated above any other disciple. Since the New Testament is the Word of God, that should be the Christian's final authority, not the fallible Church Fathers (who never claimed apostolic or prophetic authority). 

Just as God chose Abraham, Moses, Elijah and John the Baptizer, He chose Mary to fulfil His purposes. We give them all the respect that is due to them, but no more.

[Hoddie]

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Ezra said:

 

This still does not address the issue that nowhere in the New Testament is Mary elevated above any other disciple.

Interesting statement here Ezra. Surely, you who confesses the Bible to be the Word of God, can appreciate that it's not the number of Scripture references found on a given subject that determines its validity, otherwise The Prayer of Jabez would not have become a best-seller (based on two verses of Scripture, 1 Chron. 4 : 9-10).

Besides Ezra, the Bible actually has quite a bit to say about Mary, both explicitly in the New Testament and implicitly (prophetically) in the Old Testament. In the New Testament Mary is present at almost every major event in the life of Jesus.

1.His conception (Luke 1:2)

2.His development in the womb, including the fetal development of John the Baptist (Lk 1:43)

3.His birth (Lk 2:7)

4.Offering Him to God (Lk 2:22)

5.Early childhood (Lk 2:22-38)

6.His prophetic announcement of his mission at 12 years old (Lk 2:49)

7.His start in public ministry and the first of his miracles, which she instigated. (Wedding at Cana Jn 2:3)

8.His death on Calvary (Jn 19:26)

9.The birth of the Church at the Pentecost (Acts 1:14).

Pretty important events, wouldn't you say?

Since the New Testament is the Word of God, that should be the Christian's final authority, not the fallible Church Fathers (who never claimed apostolic or prophetic authority).

Could you please quote me what Book, Chapter and verse in the N.T. that makes this claim? (Or in the Old Testament for that matter)

Just as God chose Abraham, Moses, Elijah and John the Baptizer, He chose Mary to fulfil His purposes. We give them all the respect that is due to them, but no more.

Yes I agree we should give Abraham, Moses, Elijah, and John the Baptist respect that is due them. However none of them were the Mother of God. Not only that, where in Scripture does it say all generations shall call them Blessed like it does for the Blessed Virgin Mary in Lk.1:48?

Peace

　

[Hoddie]

On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Ezra said:

If Mary were to return to earth today, she would be the first to condemn Mariolatry (which began centuries after the apostolic period) and became "the cult of Mary".

Do you have anything to back up this claim, or is this just your personal opinion?

 

Peace

 

 

[Hoddie]

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 4:19 AM, enoob57 said:

 

As for the rest of your post you seem to hold The righteous God accountable for the sin we ourselves have chosen... you are looking out into a fallen world and trying to reason from sin that is in it. This is a mistake for God says sin only brings forth confusion and nothing else ~ hence the confusion in your post above trying to rationalize all that you are seeing in the world of which we began in as sinners!

I would be quite interested in how you came up with this conclusion, and would you consider it infallible?

This is how the Bible platforms our understanding:

1. The accountability issue with children seems to be an undefined factor with God...

But you beleive all we need to know reguarding faith and morals can be found in Scripture, do you not? So I'll ask again enoob57, do you beleive where it says "All" have sinned in Rom.3:23 to include aborted babies, children who die before the age of reason, or those people that are born or are severly mentaly handicapped?

2. All is all and is clearly defined in Scripture that is why I gave other verse 'no one'... directly referring to Mary and all other descended from Adam!

But you have a bit of a problem here in your quotation of St.Paul’s that "no one is righteous" (Rom. 3:10) as evidence that we are all "totally depraved" and incapable of being righteous. Why you may ask? Because of Lk.1:5-6. "In the days of Herod, King of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah of the priestly division of Abijah; his wife was from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6: "Both were righteous" in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly. (John the Baptist's parents) Also I noticed you didnt bring up the following verse of Rom.3:11 where the words "no one" also come up; "there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God." Does this mean your personal interpretation of Rom. 3:10 coincides with your interpretation of Rom. 3:11....... "no one" understands..... "no one" seeks God, includes yourself? If not, there seems to be a bit of confusion on your part.

3. Jesus does not enter into the equation for His Father was God and His body was from Adam thus it is written: Heb. 4:15-16; 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.KJV.

Curious enoob57, are these....("Jesus does not enter into the equation for His Father was God and His body was from Adam thus it is written") personal interpretation of Scripture passages of yours infallible?

　

4. The foundation of God's Word can and will exercise the confusion from our minds but you must be willing to let go of first born error...

Love, Steven

I will be awaiting your responce reguarding the confusion there seems to be in your personal interpretation (infallible?) of Rom.3:10 and 3:11.

　

Peace

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Hoddie said:

Do you have anything to back up this claim, or is this just your personal opinion?

Actually the Catholic New Advent Encyclopedia tells us about the cult of Mary.

Quote

The existence of the obscure sect of the Collyridians, whom St. Epiphanius (d. 403) denounces for their sacrificial offering of cakes to Mary, may fairly be held to prove that even before theCouncil of Ephesus there was a popular veneration for the VirginMother which threatened to run extravagant lengths. Hence Epiphanius laid down the rule: "Let Mary be held in honour. Let the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost be adored, but let no one adore Mary" (ten Marian medeis prosknueito).

This is similar to what we find in the Bible, where the idolatrous Queen of Heaven is offered up cakes.

Quote

Collyridianism was an Early Christian heretical movement in pre-Islamic Arabia^[1] whose adherents apparently worshipped the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, as a goddess. The main source of information about them comes from their strongest opponent, Epiphanius of Salamis, who wrote about them in his Panarion of about 375 AD. According to Epiphanius,^[2] certain women in then-largely pagan Arabia syncretized indigenous beliefs with the worship of Mary, and offered little cakes or bread-rolls (Greek κολλυρις – a word occurring in the Septuagint) to her. Epiphanius states that Collyridianism originated in Thrace and Scythia, although it may have first travelled to those regions from Syria or Asia Minor. Little else is known. From Wikipedia

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Hoddie said:

Pretty important events, wouldn't you say?

The events are certainly important, but they give no special importance to Mary.  As a matter of fact, when one told Jesus that His mother and brethren wished to speak with Him, He asked "Who is my mother, and brothers, and sisters?" and pointing to His disciples He said that the ones who do His will are His mother, and brother, and sister (Matthew 12:46-50).  Right there we see that the Lord Jesus Christ was making sure that Christians DO NOT venerate Mary.

While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

[Hoddie]

11 hours ago, Ezra said:

Actually the Catholic New Advent Encyclopedia tells us about the cult of Mary.

Thank you for helping me support my argument Ezra of how we Catholics honor our Lady, but worship/adore God, and God only. Yes, the New Advent Encyclopedia does mention the Collyridians. (adorers of Mary in the 4th century Arabia) This sect, mainly consisting of women or at least led by women, propagated what amounts to a Goddess cult regarding Our Lady.

Epiphanius also had this warning on their behalf: "Although Mary is the most beautiful and holy and worthy of praise, we don't owe her adoration" (Haer. 79, 7, PG 42, 752).

In a different passage Epiphanius uses even stronger words: "Adoration must cease. For Mary is no goddess. (Haer. 78, 24).

Collyridianism stood alone as a heresy that sought to deify the Blessed Virgin Mary. Little is known about the movement's theology. Not even the names of the group's leaders are mentioned by writers of the time. This sect's excessive Marian devotion developed into the idolatry of Mary worship. This aberration grew out of the Church's rightful veneration of Mary as ever-virgin, Mother of God, and powerful heavenly intercessor, but crossed the line of orthodoxy when certain Christians began to worship Mary as divine. Details about the Collyridians are scanty, but one of the few specifics we know of them is that at their liturgical service bread was offered as a sacrifice to Mary.

With Epiphanius we Catholics can and will say that anyone who worships Mary or any other creature is committing idolatry and must be rebuked. We should look to Scripture, at the case of the angel who rebuked John for his temptation to idolatry, to see how to admonish modern-day Collyridians: "At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!'" (Rev. 19:10). No doubt, our Lady herself would say this to any who would seek to worship her.

 

This is similar to what we find in the Bible, where the idolatrous Queen of Heaven is offered up cakes.

Book and verse please.

　

p.s. Really Erza..... Wikipedia as your source?

　

Peace

[Hoddie]

On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Davida said:

On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Davida said:

This is the problem Hoddie, you show extreme bias about mary , if the Bible can't convince you , can we?

This is the problem Hoddie, you show extreme bias about mary , if the Bible can't convince you , can we?

What problem, for giving honor to Jesus' Mother, whats so bias about that? And yes, the whole Word of God can convince me as expressed in the Bible itself. That is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly. Respectfully though, not your unbiblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

This seems quite a stretch to defend the worship of Mary.

Who's trying to defend the worshipping of Mary? Certainly not I or any Catholic I know. Maybe you can show me some official Catholic Doctrine that states we (Catholics) are to worship Mary, maybe like from the Catechism of the Catholic Church or from the Vatican.

1-6 She was his mother, where do you suppose she would be?

And I agree with you, except for the past tense part. (was)

Number 6 was not a prophetic announcement Jesus was "tuning His parents in" and reminding them, as they knew from the beginning, that HE CAME FROM HEAVEN & that GOD was HIS FATHER & of HIS GODLY mission to be about HIS FATHER's Business.

* I disagree. Jesus went up to the temple for his first Passover at the dawn of his manhood. It was at this key turning point in his earthly life that Jesus took the name "father" from Joseph and addressed it to God his Father in heaven. Just as the prophet Samuel heard the call of the Lord at a very young age, (1Sam.3:8) Jesus in his youth recognized that he has been given a call by his heavenly Father. His answer to his mother's anxious inquiry reveals his trusting faith and confident determination to pursue his heavenly Father's will. Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house? While Jesus recognized his unique call, he, nonetheless, submitted himself with love and obedience to Joseph and Mary and waited for the time when his call would be fulfilled.

p.s. why are you yelling?

7. Mary did not "instigate" a miracle , she "made a request" aka ( an Example the same as we make a request to Jesus in prayer) and Jesus being JESUS being the most compassionate, the most loving and Beneficent Holy One of GOD- who hears us when we pray and being One with GOD, GRANTED her request.

I see Jn.2:11 it a little differntly. The way I see it, our Lord was saying to His Blessed Mother: "My dear Mother, do you realize that you are asking me to proclaim my Divinity to appear before the world as the Son of God, and to prove my Divinity by my works and my miracles? The moment that I do this, I begin the royal road to the Cross. When I am no longer known among men as the son of the carpenter, but as the Son of God, that will be my first step toward Calvary. My hour is not yet come; but would you have me anticipate it? Is it your will that I go to the Cross? If I do this, your relationship to me changes. You are now my mother. You are known everywhere in our little village, as the 'Mother of Jesus.' But if I appear now as the Saviour of men, and begin the work of Redemption, your role will change too. Once I undertake the salvation of mankind, you will not only be my mother, but you will also be the mother of everyone whom I redeem. I am the Head of humanity; as soon as I save the body of humanity you, who are the mother of the Head, become also the mother of the body. You will then be the universal mother, the new Eve, as I am the new Adam."

Acts 1:14:

^{They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. James, Joseph, Simon and Judas. Matthew 13:55}

^{*Interesting your emphasis on "with his brother." This brings up a question I'd like to ask you Davida. In Galatians 1:19, it identifies James as both an apostle and the Lord’s brother. And, in Mark 6:3, it mentions four of Jesus’ "brothers" and one of them is named James. Is the James, the brother of Jesus, in Mark 6:3 and the apostle James, the brother of the Lord, in Gal 1:19, the same person?}

^*

^{I know Ezra will answer you much better than I can, about Elizabeth & Zechariah, but I'd just say that As for the "righteousness" business, GOD does not contradict Himself, and the Word of GOD , the Bible is infallible.}

^{*Yes you are correct, God does not contradict Himself, but I think enoob57 did in his personal interpretation of Rom.3:10 when compared to Rom. 3:11. Also, could you show the Book,Chapter or verse that states the Bible is infallible?}



^Peace