Purgatory Posits

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Allusion (13)

 

POSIT: Without holiness no one will see the Lord. (Heb. 12:14). We need a final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

 

RESPONSE: That allusion contradicts Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine which states, among other things, that purgatory's inhabitants are unable to sin. Obviously then; there is no need to refine their sanctification since a sinless state of perfection is about as truly holy as one needs to get.

 

● Matt 5:8 . . Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.

 

But the allusion utterly fails to discern the difference between who is identified as God and who is identified as the Lord.

 

● 1Cor 8:5-6 . . For though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords) yet for us there is one God: the Father . . . and one Lord: Jesus Christ

 

So then, Heb 12:14 is talking about seeing Christ rather than seeing his Father. And since Rev 1:7 predicts that every eye will eventually see him, then the seeing spoken of in Heb 12:14 involves something other than visual; viz: something a bit more intimate.

 

● Matt 11:27 . . No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son; and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him.

 

Q: What's the secret to knowing the Lord?

 

A: In one word: Loyalty.

 

● John 14:21 . . Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.

 

● John 14:23 . .Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.

 

● John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do what I command you.

 

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Allusion (14)

 

POSIT: On the basis of Luke 23:43, Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. But since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven).

 

RESPONSE: Neither Jesus nor the thief went "right to heaven". Two passages make that very clear. One is located at Matt 12:40 where Jesus predicted that he'd be in the heart of the earth during his demise. Another is located at John 20:17 where Jesus informed Mary Magdalena after his recovery that he had not yet been up to see his Father. Obviously then, the paradise to which Jesus and the thief went was down rather than up.

 

That particular allusion reveals not only its author's lack of trust in English translations of the Bible, but also a lack of trust in Roman Catholic Bible scholars, and also an element of confusion in their thinking as regards the words paradise and heaven.

 

Below is the Roman Catholic version of Luke 23:43 from three separate Roman Catholic Bibles representing literally decades of Roman Catholic scholarship.

 

Confraternity: And Jesus said to him, "Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise."

 

Douay Rheims: And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

 

2011 New American Bible: He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

 

All three of those Roman Catholic Bibles are certified with imprimaturs to contain nothing harmful to Roman Catholic faith and practices. Note in particular the type and location of the punctuation in those three official Catholic versions.

 

FYI: The trick is: there's more than one paradise in the New Testament. One is down inside the earth (Matt 12:40 and Luke 16:19-3). Another is located in a non-disclosed celestial region (2Cor 12:2-4). And yet another is located with God (Rev 2:7).

 

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Allusion (15)

 

POSIT: Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

 

RESPONSE: Rome's way of interpreting that passage is one way, but it's not the only way. However; before suggesting an alternative, it would be prudent to examine the entire parable in context.

 

● Luke 12:42-48 . . Who, then, is the faithful and prudent steward whom the master will put in charge of his servants to distribute [the] food allowance at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master on arrival finds doing so. Truly, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property.

 

. . . But if that servant says to himself; "My master is delayed in coming" and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, to eat and drink and get drunk, then that servant’s master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the unfaithful.

 

. . .That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

 

That parable doesn't target John Q and Jane Doe rank and file pew warmers, rather, it specifically targets people in charge. The Greek word for "steward" is oikonomos (oy-kon-om'-os) which identifies someone employed to supervise others.

 

The fate of stewards found in willful dereliction of duty is not only flogging but also "a place with the unfaithful".

 

The Greek word for "unfaithful" is apistos (ap'-is-tos) which identifies unbelievers. Their "place" isn't purgatory, rather, their place is described as follows:

 

● Rev 21:8 . . But as for the unfaithful, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

 

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Allusion (16)

 

POSIT: 1Pet 1:3-7 . . Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in his great mercy gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you who by the power of God are safeguarded through faith, to a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the final time.

 

. . . In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

RESPONSE: 1Pet 1:3-7 is sometimes understood to be a reiteration of 1Cor 3:5-15, but the tests are not the same.

 

1Cor 3:5-15 tests the quality of one's works, while 1Pet 1:3-7 tests the quality of one's faith.

 

The timing is different too. 1Cor 3:5-15's testing takes place in the afterlife, while 1Pet 1:3-7's testing takes place in this life.

   

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Allusion (17)

 

POSIT: Rev 21:3-4 . . Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

 

Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

 

RESPONSE: The tears, the death, the mourning, the crying, and the pain are related to the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, which will be a public spectacle. In other words, people will have to watch as friends, family, associates, and loved ones are literally pale with terror, lips trembling, mouths too dry to speak, shrieking, sobbing, screaming, weeping, yelping, and bellowing like wounded dogs as their eyes dart about in sheer white-knuckled panic, desperately looking for someone, anyone, to help them as powerful celestial beings drag them off to death akin to a foundry worker falling into a vat of molten iron.

 

Paul said the greatest of all gifts is love (1Cor 13:13). But let me tell you something: Love is inconvenient. Sensitive folk cannot sit through a scene like the one described above and not be moved by it. The effect will be so overwhelming that nothing less than the power of God will suffice to get them over it.

 

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Allusion (18)

 

POSIT: Heb 12:5-11 teaches that the Father's children have to undergo discipline; for example David in 2Sam 11:1-2Sam 12:14. Though God spared David's life for the mortal sins of premeditated murder and adultery, he was still taught a lesson for what he did. Had David not been disciplined for his sins in this life, he would have been taken to the woodshed for them in purgatory.

 

RESPONSE: That posit makes perfect sense. It's totally logical; and except for one teensy little hiccup, it would fly. The hiccup? It's an amalgam of humanistic reasoning and inspired scripture. In other words: the posit contains an element of truth, but it's not the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 

That kind of reasoning is called sophistry; which Webster's defines as reasoning or arguments that sound correct but are actually false. In point of fact, one of the very reasons that Christ supplies his followers with competent teaching is to steer them clear of clever deceivers skilled at making an ecclesiastical truth sound like the God's truth. (Eph 4:11-14)

 

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[TheMatrixHasU71]

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 9:53 AM, WebersHome said:

 

 FYI: The trick is: there's more than one paradise in the New Testament. One is down inside the earth (Matt 12:40 and Luke 16:19-3). Another is located in a non-disclosed celestial region (2Cor 12:2-4). And yet another is located with God (Rev 2:7).

The Paradise mentioned by Jesus no longer exists. That was emptied out when Jesus rose again to heaven.

Matthew 27:52   And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53   And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

2 Cor 12:2-4 is heaven, God's heaven, it is not someplace different. don't know where you are getting that idea from

Same with Rev 2:7

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 9:53 AM, WebersHome said: