Ezra Posted September 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted September 18, 2016 On 9/16/2016 at 9:06 AM, Butero said: Paul wasn't a Bishop, Deacon or Elder. Those were created positions to take the burden off those with ministry gifts. Timothy may have been a Bishop, but I don't know. The Bishop is not necessarily the Pastor. Paul was an apostle, and since he traveled with Timothy throughout the Roman empire, neither of them took an office within any church but made sure that those who remained within the local church, and were qualified, would be appointed as either elders (spiritual oversight) or deacons (temporal oversight). And for both offices being married (and proven through oversight of the household) was a requirement. Having a divorced person would simply set a bad example. In the NT, "bishop" is an alternative term for elder, so one could call them pastors/elders/bishops. Thus in Philippians 1:1 you have "bishops" (plural) since there was always a plurality of elders in the assemblies. A single pastor is therefore not a scriptural practice, and a single bishop over other elders was a later innovation, when clergy and laity were introduced into the churches. *Pastor* (having the spiritual gift) indicates the capacity to feed and tend the flock, *elder* indicates spiritual maturity and gravity (not a novice), while *bishop* indicates the taking of oversight (and having rule over the church). This is all brought together in 1 Peter 5:1-4: 1The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2Feed the flock of God [as a pastor] which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, [as a bishop] not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;[as an elder] 3Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. [spiritual leadership] 4And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted September 18, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,205 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted September 18, 2016 1 hour ago, SHINY4UJESUS said: Today's christian body is conforming more and more to the mold of the pharisee; focusing so much on the process, politics, and presentation of belief that we lose sight of the foundation. Jesus rebuked the pharisees, not because of their acts reflecting righteousness; but for putting the appearance and traditions ahead of mercy and love. We have swallowed every camel in pursuit of Jesus, yet strain at the gnat in general. No matter what the system, process, tradition, format or policy; even if we are correct in biblical theory, without love we are just meaningless noise. Let us break free of legalistic tendency and approach; let us not just profess to be the Body of Christ; but let us nurture the right attiude, perspective, priorities and passion that will allow for greater growth, abundant freedom, and a united Body. Hi SHINY4JESUS, Great post there bro. I totally agree. Ezra`s was good to. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 18, 2016 On September 16, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Butero said: Just one thing before you go away from this thread. If husband of one wife means what you say, why even give it as a qualification? Does it mean not a polygamist? Does it mean he must be married to a woman at the time? What is the meaning? Correct an elder, bishop, or deacon should not be a polygamist. On September 16, 2016 at 7:20 PM, missmuffet said: I think that if a person has a true Biblical divorce, infidelity or a non Christian leaves a person is free to remarry. Otherwise they are committing adultery. I have chosen to not remarry even though I had a Biblical divorce but that is just my thing. @Butero I think @missmuffet really hit the nail on the head here. I'm very sorry for all that you've been through sister. I hae a relative who was divorced 40+ years ago. He became a Christian as an adult. His wife left him because he wanted to follow God's leading in becoming a minister. She was not a Christian. They were divorced. He pursued her and tried to win her back. She didn't want to be with a Christian. A few years later he met his now wife. They've been married for over 35+ years and have four children as well as three grandchildren. He has served in the ministry for years but not as a bishop/pastor because of exactly the kind of interpretation in 1 Timothy 3 you have mentioned. It's a very sad thing when people point to something that happened to a person before they were even Believers and say "you cannot serve God in this capacity because of this passage in the Bible." Divorce is a terrible thing. Yet God is good and able to overcome even such tragedies. God brings beauty from ashes. And no one is too far from God to redeem. Don't you think? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 On 9/18/2016 at 2:48 PM, GoldenEagle said: Correct an elder, bishop, or deacon should not be a polygamist. @Butero I think @missmuffet really hit the nail on the head here. I'm very sorry for all that you've been through sister. I hae a relative who was divorced 40+ years ago. He became a Christian as an adult. His wife left him because he wanted to follow God's leading in becoming a minister. She was not a Christian. They were divorced. He pursued her and tried to win her back. She didn't want to be with a Christian. A few years later he met his now wife. They've been married for over 35+ years and have four children as well as three grandchildren. He has served in the ministry for years but not as a bishop/pastor because of exactly the kind of interpretation in 1 Timothy 3 you have mentioned. It's a very sad thing when people point to something that happened to a person before they were even Believers and say "you cannot serve God in this capacity because of this passage in the Bible." Divorce is a terrible thing. Yet God is good and able to overcome even such tragedies. God brings beauty from ashes. And no one is too far from God to redeem. Don't you think? God bless, GE So you think the requirement means it cannot be a polygamist. That is fine, but I will tell you why I disagree. I used to think that is what it was speaking of until I read the requirement of being a widow that is cared for by the church, where it says she must be the wife of one husband. There was no allowance for female polygamists in the law of Moses, and given it has the same language, I feel it must mean not divorced and re-married. In the case of a divorce and re-marriage that occurs when two people are sinners, I do believe you have a point, only because when you get saved, you are a new creature. You are born again, and I don't see how you can hold someone's old life against them. It is quite different than two Christians getting divorced and re-married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 19, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Butero said: So you think the requirement means it cannot be a polygamist. That is fine, but I will tell you why I disagree. I used to think that is what it was speaking of until I read the requirement of being a widow that is cared for by the church, where it says she must be the wife of one husband. There was no allowance for female polygamists in the law of Moses, and given it has the same language, I feel it must mean not divorced and re-married. In the case of a divorce and re-marriage that occurs when two people are sinners, I do believe you have a point, only because when you get saved, you are a new creature. You are born again, and I don't see how you can hold someone's old life against them. It is quite different than two Christians getting divorced and re-married. What passage specifically are you talking about regarding widows? It is interesting that widows often remarried in the Israelite or Jewish culture. So I suppose your interpretation was that if a widow re-married she was not to be considered a widow if her 2nd (or 3rd) husband died? I'm glad it seems you are trying to see my perspective. Funny enough I used to believe what you believe now. That anyone who was divorced could not be a paster, elder, or deacon... So I understand better what you are saying... You are willing to give grace to those who were divorced when they were not Believers? What about those who were believers and through no fault of their own their spouse abandons them? Let me give you another an example. A friend of ours had his wife leave him recently. She was an airline stewardess and didn't want to be with a minister of the Gospel any longer. Should this man no longer be a pastor, elder, or deacon in the local church? Keep in mind this man has been a pastor for over 20 years. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 24 minutes ago, GoldenEagle said: What passage specifically are you talking about regarding widows? It is interesting that widows often remarried in the Israelite or Jewish culture. So I suppose your interpretation was that if a widow re-married she was not to be considered a widow if her 2nd (or 3rd) husband died? I'm glad it seems you are trying to see my perspective. Funny enough I used to believe what you believe now. That anyone who was divorced could not be a paster, elder, or deacon... So I understand better what you are saying... You are willing to give grace to those who were divorced when they were not Believers? What about those who were believers and through no fault of their own their spouse abandons them? Let me give you another an example. A friend of ours had his wife leave him recently. She was an airline stewardess and didn't want to be with a minister of the Gospel any longer. Should this man no longer be a pastor, elder, or deacon in the local church? Keep in mind this man has been a pastor for over 20 years. God bless, GE 1 Timothy 5:9 "Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man." It is not a matter of me giving grace. I don't have any authority to do that. If it was up to me, I don't care one way or the other if a divorced and re-married man serves as a bishop/elder, or deacon. Many of these things don't matter to me personally. It is not like I look down my nose at someone because they are divorced. I know things happen. I just believe in following scripture. If a man's wife leaves him, he really shouldn't be serving in those offices, however, he could continue on as a Pastor, evangelist, teacher, apostle or prophet, so long as the church is set up where qualified individuals are doing to job of bishop, which is the carnal everyday issues that come up in the church. Then you have the deacons to "wait on tables." The Pastor is to give his time to the Word and prayer. Something a lot of people don't get about me is that in many instances, I really don't care about what people are doing or not doing. If God didn't say something was his proper order, I would not care. I could give you a whole host of examples. Why is it I am so hard against fornication while dating? Why am I opposed to homosexual unions? Why do I care if women have long hair and men short hair, after all, some women look cute with short hair. Most look better with it long, but not all. The point is not that I personally care about all these issues just to look down on people. I just know what God says about certain things, and I believe that it is my responsibility as his Ambassador to only speak what he says, and only give his opinions. My personal feelings don't matter, just as an ambassador to a nation can't give his personal views. His views are the views of the nation he represents. So personally, I have a lot of sympathy towards what your friend is going through. It is obviously not his fault, and I have known men in the same place, but I don't have the right to grant people "grace." Only God can do that, and I can only go as far as his Word teaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 By allowing God's Holy Spirit to guide us... God empowers us to: 1. Agree with the truth about our problems. (Psalm 145:18, John 8:32 and KJV version here) 2. Submit to our inabilities to God and He will turn our lives around. (Matthew 5: 3, 6 James 4:7-10, I John 1:9 and KJV version here) 3. Resist temptation and turn from evil. (1 Corinthians 10:13; James 4:7; and KJV version here) 4. Ask Him to help us with our developmental injuries and/or leftover childhood needs. (2 Corinthians 5:17-18, Galatians 2:20 and KJV version here) 5. Seek out those who have injured us and make amends. (Ephesians 4:32, Matthew 18:15-17; Hebrews 12:14 and KJV version here) 6. Forgive those who have hurt us! (Colossians 3:13; Matthew 18:21-22 and KJV version here) God Bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 20, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 We cannot change anybody else, but we can allow God to change us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted September 21, 2016 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted September 21, 2016 On 9/9/2016 at 11:46 PM, Butero said: Discipline is used to control others.... You discipline people so others will fear to break the rules.... A private ministry or church is well within it's rights to control anything the members do.... They can control how people dress, hair style, if they can have tattoos.... that they must pay tithes, anything.... We are free.... to go elsewhere if we don't like the rules..... Why shouldn't a church be able to control the members.... No Fear Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:6-7 And Beloved, No More Popes But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. Matthew 23:8-11 Jumping On The And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. Exodus 20:25 Bed Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5 ~ Beloved, If One Claims The Name Of Christ My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. James 3:1-2 Is He Really Free To Beat The Sheep? Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 23:1-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted September 21, 2016 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted September 21, 2016 On 9/7/2016 at 4:54 PM, Butero said: If you really believe as you say you do, you must hate Worthy Christian Forums.... People aren't free to believe or do anything they feel led to do here.... We have moderators that make people watch the words they use and the things they say.... I once had a moderator who is no longer in that position tell me I wasn't allowed to use words.... to describe a practice I consider sinful, though in my conscience.... I was using the proper terminology..... It wasn't profanity.... or anything like that.... If you think it is wrong to try to control people in church.... you must feel the same about this forum..... I have no issue.... with trying to control people's bad behavior.... All Are Welcome And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15 Some Play And Some Stay But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. James 3:17 Some Won't And Some Are Booted Away Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Ephesians 4:29 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Timothy 2:1-6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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