Women in Ministry

[Christ's Free Servant]

Dear all,

This is a good discussion. I am a new entrant to this site and feel that these are some of the discussions that we as christians in this generation need to engage in.

Firstly, we should think carely about our positions on this topic. It is interesting that in general, men believe that women should not teach, and women believe women should teach. The definition of 'teach' here is used loosely to cover the scope of the foregoing discussion;

Secondly, the role of culture in all this needs to be checked. We here in Africa have so many cultures and the question is where do we draw the line?? At what point do we say that culture should not anymore have any influence on the things we accept as biblical truth??? Is truth changeable?? With current trends in society, only God knows where culture is leading us!

Thirdly, which of Pauls teachings should be taken literally and which ones should not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear mo2005,

I believe that we should all take a course in biblical interpretation. If we were to take all scripture literally, then we would end up with so many contradictions it is not funny. For instance, God says to love our parents, but Jesus says if we do not hate our mother and father, then we don't love him. So, which is it? Are we to love our parents or are we to hate them? Obviously the answer is that we are to love them. So, then what did Jesus mean? Apparently he was making some kind of analogy, like in comparison to our love for him our love for our family should be like hate. Oh, if we all loved God that much!!

The Bible says that if your eye causes you to sin, take it out and if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. Are we to take this literally? And, if we did, how many of us would be going around with our body parts missing? We have all sinned. So, how can we interpret this? I believe it means to forsake, perhaps destroy, those things in our lives that cause us to fall into sin. For instance, if we have a problem with lust but we are continually watching TV sitcoms or movies that glorify sexual relations outside of marriage, then how in the world can we possibly overcome this sin. We need to remove those TV shows or movies from our lives. If we can not control our desire to watch them, then remove the TV from your house.

And, the list goes on....

So, we have to interpret scripture by comparing scripture with scripture. Look at how many scriptures talk about the use of spiritual gifts and imply that women and men alike are equally gifted and that we should not say to a part of the body "I have no need of you" and we should let people use their gifts and the body is made up of many parts and the parts that are less we should treat with special honor. How is man supposed to treat his wife? How are church leaders supposed to treat those under them? They are supposed to love us as Christ loved the church. Look then at Jesus example. How did he treat women? Then, look at the scriptures on the silence of women in the church. And, compare those with the scriptures that say that women prophesied and prayed in the church. Obviously, then, he can not mean absolute silence. If we were to keep women absoluletly silent in our churches, then the churches would fall apart if the men all of a sudden had to start doing everything. So, if absolute silence is obviously not intended, then what does it mean? It has to mean that in that culture women were creating some kind of problem with regard to order in the meetings, because it is in reference to order in the church. So, if the issue is merely one of order, and the elders are over everyone, then don't the elders have the right to allow women to use their gifts, whatever their gifts are?

And, then there is the issue of the meaning of prophesying. If one were to do a complete search of this subject in the Bible, one would soon learn that to prophesy is to proclaim God's words, to instruct, to correct, to exhort, to rebuke, to confront sin in the church, etc. Are we allowing our women to do this in our churches? Be honest! Are we? And, we say God makes some exceptions about women in leadership, such as with Deborah and with Priscilla (& Aquila). If that is so, are we the church listening to God to see those exceptions among us? Are we? Or are we stereotyping all women into one category and expecting them all to behave the same?

And, what about the teaching of Jesus and the teaching of Paul on not allowing ourselves to be enslaved to men but to be free in Christ? If God has gifted me in a certain area and man is suppressing that gift, then am I truly free?

Last, but not least, am I willing to search for the truth or am I so engrained in a certain teaching that I will not budge? Are we willing here to seek the truth? Are we willing to hear one another and take it to God and ask him to show us his truth? Or are we afraid God may tell us something that messes with our theology? It took me 30 years to finally accept God's role for me 100%. I kept hearing man telling me that because I was a woman I could not be such and such, but God kept telling me to listen to him, not to them. It was a 30 year long battle, but Christ won the battle!! I know now who I am in Christ and I know that man can not limit that. God will make a way for me where there seems to be no way. Look, here I am a women teaching or prophesying on a website read by both men and women. I am teaching a Bible study with young men and women, and I know God has even more for me in the days to come. I believe him!! Will you be willing to hear what he has to say to you?

[AnotherTraveler]

Women in Ministry?

Talk about giving enough rope to hang yourself!

I am willing to dive right in. I believe that the bible in the New Testament certainly declares that the older women should teach the younger women. Clearly declared is the quote from Joel repeated in Acts that both male and female would receive the outpouring and dreams and visions. I do not see how the Lord limits the role of women serving with very few exceptions, but those exceptions do exist.

A woman cannot be the "husband of one wife", and any office that the bible declares requires that, does so with the expressed intention of excluding certain offices from women.

I cannot be a mother, nor a grandmother, and the fact that I cannot does not prevent me from doing the Lord's will in my life, He never intended me to fulfill any of the exclusively female roles, and this He did by creating me a male.

I have recently watched as a pastor that all his days of ministry believed that women could do any ministry except pastor change his mind, and there appears to be a woman slowly but methodically taking the pastorate of the church as the pastor edges out, but a tragic thing is occurring.

There were several men that were in active ministry, ordained and very serious bible students, and they have left with their families one by one until not one solid family remains in this church, and the simple but certain reason that they have left is that the bible teaches one thing, but there was another thing going on.

The lady that is taking the church is a nice enough person, but her husband is an unbeliever that does not want anything to do with God, he never attends church.

The fact is that men and women are different, and God never intended to "blur" the differences between them. A man is to be the head of his home, and that is not just Old Testament either. Imagine the confusion that arises when a man is the head of his home but his wife is his pastor? Obey them that have the rule over you, as one that must give an account.

Beside all this, as with any important truth, we would find examples of this occurring in the New Testament church, and there are many fine examples of women in ministry (serving), but there is not a single instance of a woman pastor in your bible, and there is a reason that there is not.

[IslandRose]

Women in Ministry?

Talk about giving enough rope to hang yourself!

I am willing to dive right in. I believe that the bible in the New Testament certainly declares that the older women should teach the younger women. Clearly declared is the quote from Joel repeated in Acts that both male and female would receive the outpouring and dreams and visions. I do not see how the Lord limits the role of women serving with very few exceptions, but those exceptions do exist.

A woman cannot be the "husband of one wife", and any office that the bible declares requires that, does so with the expressed intention of excluding certain offices from women.

I cannot be a mother, nor a grandmother, and the fact that I cannot does not prevent me from doing the Lord's will in my life, He never intended me to fulfill any of the exclusively female roles, and this He did by creating me a male.

I have recently watched as a pastor that all his days of ministry believed that women could do any ministry except pastor change his mind, and there appears to be a woman slowly but methodically taking the pastorate of the church as the pastor edges out, but a tragic thing is occurring.

There were several men that were in active ministry, ordained and very serious bible students, and they have left with their families one by one until not one solid family remains in this church, and the simple but certain reason that they have left is that the bible teaches one thing, but there was another thing going on.

The lady that is taking the church is a nice enough person, but her husband is an unbeliever that does not want anything to do with God, he never attends church.

The fact is that men and women are different, and God never intended to "blur" the differences between them. A man is to be the head of his home, and that is not just Old Testament either. Imagine the confusion that arises when a man is the head of his home but his wife is his pastor? Obey them that have the rule over you, as one that must give an account.

Beside all this, as with any important truth, we would find examples of this occurring in the New Testament church, and there are many fine examples of women in ministry (serving), but there is not a single instance of a woman pastor in your bible, and there is a reason that there is not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[hisgrace]

This is a christian forum and i see alot of women posting threads on here quoting scripture and giving advice not only to the men but to the women also a bit confusing. I have heard some say this is their church so what do we call the ladies on here quoting scripture you know men are going to read. How many read this one?

[Guest Ford F150]

Interesting Point, his grace.

[Keith]

This is a christian forum and i see alot of women posting threads on here quoting scripture and giving advice not only to the men but to the women also a bit confusing. I have heard some say this is their church so what do we call the ladies on here quoting scripture you know men are going to read. How many read this one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is not a church, it is a discussion forum. Some may consider it a "church" for themselves, but it is not scripturally a church, thus, this point would not apply. The wonderful women here are not in any spiritual authority over any of the men. There is nothing wrong with men and women discussing scriptures and having conversations and giving advice. Nobody that I know of said that women aren't allowed to quote scripture or give advice. It has nothing to do with trying to keep women down or dominate over them. It's supposed to be about what scripture has to say about the subject. Our feelings are not the issue.

[Guest Jacee]

Hi

I sort of lost this discussion; is why I didn't post again until now.

If I am in a church that doesn't allow a woman to minister, prophesy, or whatever, I would keep silent. There would be no reason to speak for it would not be of the Lord but would be assertion of my rights. So, outside that particular church, I would assert my right of not attending, and find one that is understanding the word the same. I guess that is the reason why there is so many denominations.

This has been brought out in other topics but is the truth so I will say it here. The word is written in hebrew for the old testament, and greek, for the new. The language is poetic and our english words lack the full impact of understanding all that is being said. Is a good case for the scripture to study and show yourself approved, a good workman, one who is able to rightly divide the word of truth. Paul was writing letters addressing problems. In my post I attempted to give the picture of what was going on. And I did see this, as I did a word study. It actually was a word study on the tree of knowlede of good and evil. But, since then I have read it in other sources so I'm not just pulling something out of my own study.

Whether or not a man or woman prophesies is really not the issue. What is important is that the Lord wants to speak to His people. He will use whoever is available. The source is the important thing. Who is it who is speaking. Holy Spirit? Or flesh? That takes discernment and knowledge of the word. So all the gifts of God should be in use in the meetings. And all be free to allow Him to move as He so chooses.

The real problem is the structured church as we know it today. But, that is another topic. and a can of worms I might add.

[Christ's Free Servant]

This is a christian forum and i see alot of women posting threads on here quoting scripture and giving advice not only to the men but to the women also a bit confusing. I have heard some say this is their church so what do we call the ladies on here quoting scripture you know men are going to read. How many read this one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is not a church, it is a discussion forum. Some may consider it a "church" for themselves, but it is not scripturally a church, thus, this point would not apply. The wonderful women here are not in any spiritual authority over any of the men. There is nothing wrong with men and women discussing scriptures and having conversations and giving advice. Nobody that I know of said that women aren't allowed to quote scripture or give advice. It has nothing to do with trying to keep women down or dominate over them. It's supposed to be about what scripture has to say about the subject. Our feelings are not the issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keith,

Actually, I think hisgrace brought up a valid point. Bear with me here just a second, ok? Actually, hisgrace, I was thinking this one myself and my husband concurred with me. Keith, what is the church? Is it a building? NO! Is it a local congregation? Sure! Is it the body of Christ? Absolutely!! Are we Christians on here the body of Christ? You bet!! So, when we meet together on here and Christ says that where two or more are gathered together in his name he is in the midst of them, then would not that comprise the church? YES!!

If I am free to prophesy on here and to teach and to share the truths God is teaching me and you, as a man, feel free to share in that discussion, but then you, as a man, would not allow a woman the freedom to do the same in your own "church," is not that a contradiction? Why would it be ok here and not in your local congregation? Is it because there is no structure here? But, we do have some structure here, do we not? Are there not people who monitor our conversations? So, in essence, they are in some sort of position of spiritual authority over us (loosely, I know).

But, even that aside, the bottom line is that I, a woman, am prophesying and teaching and counseling and exhorting and encouraging other believers here in the faith and many of them are men. So, if you truly believe it is wrong for a woman to do that, then why do you participate in these discussions? Why don't the men on here ban discussions with women? I really see this as a double standard. And, if I, a mere woman, have the freedom to let the Holy Spirit speak through me here but if I were in a church where I did not have that freedom, then is it any wonder some people would consider this their church? Why do many people leave churches? A lot of them leave because they get more love in the world than they do in the church.

My husband and I were just reading a book about this subject tonight. It is by Chuck Swindol (my favorite author) and it is called "Dropping Your Guard." You should read it some time. He compares our churches to untouchable glass Cathedrals when they need to be more like local bars (figuratively speaking), meaning they need to be more like a hospital for the hurting. Do you know the place people get hurt the most? In churches!!

[Christ's Free Servant]

Whether or not a man or woman prophesies is really not the issue.  What is important is that the Lord wants to speak to His people.  He will use whoever is available. The source is the important thing.  Who is it who is speaking.  Holy Spirit?  Or flesh?  That takes discernment and knowledge of the word.  So all the gifts of God should be in use in the meetings.  And all be free to allow Him to move as He so chooses. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here, here!!

I honestly wish that the men on here who have an issue with women prophesying in the church would take this before the Lord and honestly and sincerely ask Jesus if this is really what he intended. Why would God give us these gifts and put this passion in our hearts for him and his word and put his messages within us that he wants to give out to the church only to frustrate us and make us feel as though we are not valuable, not needed, not wanted and not loved? If only you could see how Phariseeacle (sp?) this sounds to us women who are gifted in this way. If you could see me as Jesus sees me, then you would not have this attitude. Don't you see that this is so much like the Pharisees' approach? They were so concerned about everything having to go a certain way that they totally missed the point. It's not about a set of rules. It's about Jesus' love and his compassion and mercy and he loves all of us and wants to use all of us and can't you see how much you hurt us when you deny us the opportunity to use our gifts he has imparted to us for his glory?

Will you please take the time to ask the Lord what he thinks of this? I don't mean go to the passages of scripture on the silence of women in the church, either. What I mean is in your daily time with the Lord ask him and seek his face and see what he tells you through his word. He'll show you if you will honestly seek him. What are you afraid of? We're not looking to usurp authority over you. I operate totally under the authority of my husband, yet he gives me the freedom to be who I am in Christ. He asked God about me, and God answered him. No one is asking to be in authority over you. We are just asking for the freedom to use the gifts God has given us in the body of Christ for the building up of the body of Christ (the whole body). Do you really think Jesus would silence us? Did he ever treat a woman that way (other than maybe one)? Please see us through his eyes.

[irishcowboy]

I still wonder how Deborah managed to rule over the men of Israel as she was one of the judges..........

is that not being in a place of Authority? was not she in Authority over men as well as women?

also,

where is the church? is it the Building we go to fellowship in?

who is the HEAD OF THE CHURCH? the pastor?

or is the Head of the Church Christ Jesus.

going to church is not a correct term, for if we go to church that says we also leave church........... I do not leave church, and I do not go to church..... I go fellowship with other believers, but do not leave the church, the Church is with me always, as Christ is with me always, and the Spirit is teaching thru people alwys...

you can look at it this way also,

there are denominations that allow females to be pastors. now, who is above the lady that is pastoring? isnt there a board that is above the pastor? a board of elders or deacons or even trustees? are there men on that board? if so, would then not that woman pastor fall under the "authority " of that board? that is as long as that board placed them selves under the authroity of the Holy Spirit...

hmmmm, imagine that, how many board members have submitted themselves to the Authority of the Holy Spirit?

a person can then look at the Presbytary, (or the main office of the denomination, depending on what it may be called) and look at the board that sits there, making the rules for the rest of the denomination.......

are not these "rule makers" under the "Authority" of the Holy Spirit? if they are, and there is a woman that is a pastor, is she held under their authority?

I really like the way some people will say they will not listen to a woman, and yet they wont listen to the Holy Spirit either....

I coached soccer for several years, co-ed soccer, and some of the best players were girls.

one year, i had a young man on the team that was totally against women, he would do what he could get away with doing illegal moves trying to take them out (his own team members during practice and the oponants female members during games) . this young man sat out just as much as anyone else, and he was the Sponsors kid.

the girls he hated the most, were the ones that would show him up. why would they show him up? cause they would concentrate on the job at hand rather then who was or was not suppose to be doing the job. one young lady was the best (yea, the best ) al around player i had, a good goalee, fast on her feet, quick turning, great ball handling, and worked every position she was placed in with passion. she was not a ball hog, but yet would handle the ball as though she was born with it. she also had the attitude that it didnt matter who you were, if you want to play, you can play, and we would take on those other teams would not.

most teams had 12 / 13 people on them. our team had 19 that year, why? cause i treated the kids right, and they had respect for each other and the other teams, the boy that didnt like girls, he learned to respect them and became a much better player.....

I would like to say that if we are so focused on who is standing in front of us, ( the human person ) that we will be missing some major blessings from the Holy Spirit that is working thru the human person standing in front of us.

are we focused on the person?

are we focused on the message?

are we focused on the Holy Spirit?

are we so caught up in preconceived ideas that if a person teaching has green hair that we are going to throw them to the sharks?

how about that teenage boy that just came in with saftey pins and paper clips attached to his ears, nose, lip and cheek, with hair spiked. how are we going to treat them? are we going to be nice to them in the church fellowship, and as soon as you walk out and go to the cafe down the road for lunch and see him there working shun him? chances are you will......

I have a nephew that is in a town that he can not leave, and there is not one church fellowship that will accept him. He took Jesus as his Lord and Savior this past fall, and was baptised in the lake in november ( in north central oklahoma )

since then he has been going to church fellowships, and they ignore him.

most people that "GO TO CHURCH" are doing nothing more then doing what they feel will be their weekly duty. their weekly obligation, and after that they can not be bothered.

Look around you........ or are you afraid of what people will say.......... look around you.......... is there "rejects " in your fellowship? .........

why not???????

because they are not welcome....................

we are so caught up in our legal trash, that we have chased people away.

SALVATION IS THIS SIMPLE....................

LOVE THE LORD AND HE WILL BLESS YOU.

this brings back the question

who is your neighbor..........

if a woman is standing in front of me, and teaching the Word of God, wonderful, she has guts, more guts then most men have, more passion for the Lord then most men have, more gumption then most men, has more love then most men.

ooops, i stepped on toes, cause i just said this woman teaching the Word of God has more then most men, why????? cause most men are more concerned about what people will think about them and will not

thats right MOST MEN WILL NOT, WILL NOT, WILL NOT, WILL NOT

get up infront of anyone and teach the Word of God, they dont even do it at home, if they can not stand up for God at home how in the world are they going to stand up for God away from home.

you want to condemn a woman for teaching or preaching, but you will not lift your voice in honor of the Lord.............

how many of you want to keep the Law? how many of you want to keep women out from behind the pulpit?

best start looking at yourself.

do you have a tatoo?

have you ever committed anything against the Laws?

if we have to keep the laws, then the time Jesus spent here was a waste of time,

if we have to worry about what we wear or do, then the Cross was not needed.

we fall under grace, but for some reason, the church people want to keep making rules against people.

I know that there are many people that come here, that do not fellowship with others, those are going against the Word also, some even think they have an exclussive on the Word and what it means and such........... why do most excuse fellowshiping with others? some because they have their own pride to deal with, others because they can not be bothered, some because they dont want the rules that are set in place and want to set their own rules. some even just want an exclussive country club........

some of these reasons apply to some of you that do not fellowship with others, claem that home churhc is the best way, but in your home church you have you and your imediate family and maybe a couple close friends, until those friends call you on somehting and then they are no longer a member of your home church.

why not stop pointing fingers at what God has called someone else to do, and start doign what God has called you to do.........

mike