how could God not intend marijuana to be used by Christians?

[Openly Curious]

59 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

How about pharmaceuticals, that Christians take in abundance? Or football games on TV, or political shows, or movies, that alter one's moods and blood chemistry?

Short answer, nothing will hinder our prayers if we are sincere.

Where does Scripture draw the line? Moderation. Any of our personal judgments beyond that overstep the authority of the Word.

So are you actually advocating that smoking pot should be a "godly" accepted practice in the church today?  And that the practice and act of smoking marijuna is accepted by God?

[OakWood]

23 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Are you speaking about yourself? Because this presumption you state is certainly not true for many people, either for pot or alcohol.

Maybe we should start a discussion on the mind- and body-altering drug called coffee? Be interesting to see how the opinions of some people might do a 180 degree shift.

Coffee is NOT a mind-altering drug. It is a stimulant but that's not the same thing. You can drive a car on coffee without any effect on your perception, your reflexes or reaction speed, or your hand-to-eye coordination.

You can't safely drive a car when stoned.

Marijuana changes thought patterns, slows down perception of time and can induce paranoia. In large doses it can lead to minor hallucinations and distortions of reality. People have strange thoughts when under the influence of marijuana. They believe in certain things that they would not believe in when not under the influence. Dope-smokers refer to this as deep-thinking and believe it gives them profound wisdom when in reality it just makes them think nonsense. It also reduces testosterone levels and can lead to gynaecomastia (breast growth) in men. I personally know of one person who suffered from this caused by years of marijuana consumption. I will admit though that this condition is rare.

I know from personal experience that marijuana does such things. I know (or did know) many marijuana smokers and what rubbish they talk when they are stoned. They are also prone to periods of sluggish behaviour. Unlike stimulants, marijuana is not really compatible with productivity and hard work.

I know of three people (including myself) who have experienced terrible distortions of reality when heavily stoned, things which some people may refer to as a 'bad trip'. However, I have to admit that such incidences are rare and most smokers are unaffected by it. This phenomenon is commonly referred to as 'dope psychosis'. Marijuana does not normally cause hallucinations but it can do, and when it does the effects can be profound and very frightening.

Coffee and marijuana are apples and oranges. There is no valid comparison between the two. Most people drink coffee in moderation as a useful stimulant to induce wakefulness, but most marijuana users smoke to get 'high'. They derive no other benefit from it.

I'm not saying it has no benefits, it can ease the symptoms of Parkinson's disease for example, but most marijuana users use this as an excuse to try and get the drug legalised - yet they are not suffering from Parkinson's themselves.

I've never heard of a marijuana user claim that marijuana should be legalised but 'only on prescription for a valid medical reason and with prosecution and severe penalties for those who use it without medical permission'. The day that they do that is the day that I will believe that their motives are not suspicious.

Instead they always seem to waffle on about the medical benefits of it then use that as an excuse to light up another joint!

I don't believe that any Christian can justify recreational marijuana use. The only ones that I know of are Rastafarians, and they are crazy enough to believe that an Ethiopian emperor is the Messiah, so they're not really Christians. I do believe however that Christians can struggle with addiction like anybody else and some Christians probably do smoke dope as a hangover from their pre-Christian life. But no Christian can endorse it.

I personally am a cigarette smoker. I wish to stop but I am struggling. It's possible to be a Christian and smoke cigarettes but I would never claim that God approves of it. Likewise, it's possible to be a Christian and occasionally smoke marijuana if its something that you personally find difficult to give up, but you can never claim that God endorses it, and a Christian should never take up marijuana smoking.

There is no reason to endorse the consumption of cannabis. If you do so then it's possible that you are trying to use to scripture to justify your own weakness and give authenticity to it.

[Openly Curious]

Well said Oakwood and I agree we can't promote our own weaknesses as being right.

[RustyAngeL]

5 hours ago, Out of the Shadows said:

And yet when I was in the military (early 70's) we would hit the club at lunch and slam 3 or 4 beers and go back to work.  Or we would get them out of the vending machine in our squad bay and slam them before going back to work.   Nobody frets over someone being drunk or even buzzed and working on their aircraft and alcohol is readily available. 

I fret over someone being drunk especially when driving or doing something that could put others at risk including myself or friends who don't smoke dope or drink.  I think that was very well expressed.  I like Shiloh don't touch either one.  

So from your post, do I gather that you and your co workers were  drinking while on the job?  I"m not sure what you are trying to get across. I guess it all boils down to character and do these people care enough to stay away from this stuff period.

 I really don't believe there is a responsible way to use marijuana in a recreational manner and please don't try and convince me that marijuana could not lead to harder drugs.  It is a known fact has. As far as I"m concerned this is something that  just doesn't belong in a Christians life. 

Blessings, RustyAngeL

 

[WilliamL]

35 minutes ago, OakWood said:

Dope-smokers refer to this as deep-thinking and believe it gives them profound wisdom when in reality it just makes them think nonsense.

36 minutes ago, OakWood said:

Unlike stimulants, marijuana is not really compatible with productivity and hard work.

Ah, the stereotypes people believe.

Back in the '80s, I worked for a few years at the Ogden IRS center that processed tax returns. There were about 200 people in my whole section, and we were all rated on a combined score of speed and accuracy. Bonuses were awarded to the top workers. Most were church-going Mormons, and pot was nearly unknown in that area. Yet I learned that three of the top five employees out of the 200 were pot smokers. The top producer would go into the mostly-unused smokers bathroom (smoking had not yet been banned from federal buildings) and take a toke now and then, then come back to his desk and fly through the forms, blowing everybody else away. So much for stereotypes.

45 minutes ago, OakWood said:

Coffee is NOT a mind-altering drug. It is a stimulant but that's not the same thing.

Pardon me, but caffeine is a brain-altering chemical.

"Caffeine is a stimulant drug often used to improve mental processing. There are many effects of caffeine on the brain, as well as psychological effects of caffeine. It is believed to work by blocking the neurotransmitter adenosine's receptors, increasing excitability in the brain. Caffeine also influences other neurotransmitters, including norepinephrine, dopamine, and acetylcholine. These have effects on mood and mental processing.

Effects of Caffeine on Mood

Caffeine increases alertness, and many people find that caffeine improves their mood through improving their sense of being switched on, and having a sense of task accomplishment. However, like other stimulants, it also increases anxiety.

https://www.verywell.com/what-are-the-effects-of-caffeine-on-the-brain-21842

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Openly Curious said:

So are you actually advocating that smoking pot should be a "godly" accepted practice in the church today?  And that the practice and act of smoking marijuna is accepted by God?

I am not advocating anything other than common sense, which, as this topic has well-demonstrated, often flies out the window when people's emotions and prejudices get involved.

[Openly Curious]

32 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

I am not advocating anything other than common sense, which, as this topic has well-demonstrated, often flies out the window when people's emotions and prejudices get involved.

Could you please tell me what that "common sense" is that your advocating?

[Guest shiloh357]

40 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Ah, the stereotypes people believe.

 

Pardon me, but caffeine is a brain-altering chemical.

"Caffeine is a stimulant drug often used to improve mental processing. There are many effects of caffeine on the brain, as well as psychological effects of caffeine. It is believed to work by blocking the neurotransmitter adenosine's receptors, increasing excitability in the brain. Caffeine also influences other neurotransmitters, including norepinephrine, dopamine, and acetylcholine. These have effects on mood and mental processing.

Effects of Caffeine on Mood

Caffeine increases alertness, and many people find that caffeine improves their mood through improving their sense of being switched on, and having a sense of task accomplishment. However, like other stimulants, it also increases anxiety.

https://www.verywell.com/what-are-the-effects-of-caffeine-on-the-brain-21842

It's not mind altering.   It doesn't send you into an altered state of consciousness.  You cannot compare coffee to mind altering drugs that make you high and impair judgment.   So that is not a very good comparison.

[OakWood]

57 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Ah, the stereotypes people believe.

Back in the '80s, I worked for a few years at the Ogden IRS center that processed tax returns. There were about 200 people in my whole section, and we were all rated on a combined score of speed and accuracy. Bonuses were awarded to the top workers. Most were church-going Mormons, and pot was nearly unknown in that area. Yet I learned that three of the top five employees out of the 200 were pot smokers. The top producer would go into the mostly-unused smokers bathroom (smoking had not yet been banned from federal buildings) and take a toke now and then, then come back to his desk and fly through the forms, blowing everybody else away. So much for stereotypes.

Pardon me, but caffeine is a brain-altering chemical.

"Caffeine is a stimulant drug often used to improve mental processing. There are many effects of caffeine on the brain, as well as psychological effects of caffeine. It is believed to work by blocking the neurotransmitter adenosine's receptors, increasing excitability in the brain. Caffeine also influences other neurotransmitters, including norepinephrine, dopamine, and acetylcholine. These have effects on mood and mental processing.

Effects of Caffeine on Mood

Caffeine increases alertness, and many people find that caffeine improves their mood through improving their sense of being switched on, and having a sense of task accomplishment. However, like other stimulants, it also increases anxiety.

https://www.verywell.com/what-are-the-effects-of-caffeine-on-the-brain-21842

Brain-altering is not the same as mind-altering. Caffeine does not affect your perceptions of reality or alter your state of consciousness. It does not affect your take on reality. Millions of coffee-drinkers around the World do not need a scientific article to verify whether coffee makes them 'trip' or not. Besides they don't sink coffee after coffee after coffee to get high. They don't shout from the rooftops the medical benefits of coffee and declare that there's nothing wrong with it. Of course coffee has side effects if used in excess, but so has dope and the ones from dope are far worse.

You also talk about stereotypes as if I don't know what I am talking about. I talk from personal experience. I tripped on marijuana, I know others that have. I know dope-smokers and what they are like. I was around the stuff for years. I know the junk that dope-smokers talk about, the false wisdom that they have, the self-deceptions they have, the giggling, the occasional paranoia.

As for the pot-smokers in your place of work - were they stoned at the time they processed the forms? Were they off their heads? Dope may not slow down anyone's speed in one-off tests but it does lead to general lethargy in the long run. You sound as if you are claiming that marijuana actually improved their performances, that is definitely what you are implying?

You sound like the drunk-driver who claims that he drives better when he's had a few. Just excuses to justify a terrible, dangerous habit. I've heard it all before, constant excuses to justify a bad habit. This is no different to homosexuals who justify their perversion  by claiming that 'Jesus loves everybody' or adulterers who justify their sins by claiming that 'well, I'm not hurting anybody'.

You're justifying marijuana-smoking by claiming that people who you worked with could all do their jobs properly and still smoke dope. Oh well that's great - let's all go out and pollute our bodies shall we? - It might cause long-term health problems or long-term psychoses but at least we'll be able to process our tax returns quickly!

Guess what? Cocaine improves one's speed and reflex actions, it also increases wakefulness and alertness. That's great. Maybe I should try some. Maybe I should ignore the addiction, the cardiac problems associated with it and try snorting a line or two. What about heroin? I'm sure that must have some benefits too. At least I might get a good night's sleep if I took some.

I've heard all this before. Justification of a bad habit by pointing out some of its benefits. The list goes on and on. I've heard this 'legalise cannabis' debate going on for decades. The dope-smokers always come out with this nonsense while sitting in a dark room passing a joint between each other and pontificating on such wisdom. Mutually patting each other on the back while agreeing with each other that the World doesn't understand them. Claiming that their drug of choice is not addictive but nevertheless having the urge to risk their jobs and livelihoods to slip off to the toilets and have a crafy 'puff' in private.

"It's not addictive at all" they claim but they can't stop taking the stuff or talking about it all the time. They even have little tobacco tins with marijuana leaves painted on them to symbolise their love for the weed. They'll even grow their own in little plant-pots and water their cannabis plants daily with loving care while preaching how alcohol is a far worse drug. As if something far worse can ever justify the use of something that's not as bad. That's like saying "I cheat on my wife, but I'm not really an adulterer because some men cheat on their wives far more often that I do and they have more than one mistress."

In truth the only justification that marijuana users have for legalising their drug is that some people may have medical uses for it and that other drugs are far worse. That's absolutely no excuse for using marijuana for recreational use.

I'm aware that opiates can be very effective pain-killers for those who are in severe pain but it doesn't give me any excuse to sit around smoking opium or injecting myself with heroin does it?

 

[missmuffet]

16 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

It's not mind altering.   It doesn't send you into an altered state of consciousness.  You cannot compare coffee to mind altering drugs that make you high and impair judgment.   So that is not a very good comparison.

That is correct. Caffeine and nicotine do not alter your mind. But alcohol and recreational and illegal drugs do. Very dangerous to be driving a car under the influence of those substances. Although caffeine and nicotine are still classified as drugs.