Mortification

[eric]

That is an excellent article, Shelby.  And this verse...

Romans 13:14, "Put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh to gratify its desires."

...is one you could "chew on" all day and find different areas of your live to apply it to.

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Quite true IR, but DadE has just quoted one of my favourite passages from Rom.14. If a person likes to have the odd drink or smoke and feels as if it doesn't hinder him/her self in their christian walk, don't do it in such a way that it would cause a brother or sister to stumble in their walk. Keep it between your self and God and don't try and tell others that is okay. People are struggling with such vices and to quote your own personal thoughts are not going to help. It is bad witnessing.

On a larger scale. the archbishop of Canterbury is gay and and a supporter of gay marriages. What kind of witness is that to a young person who is seeking God. Just because the head of the anglican church says, it's alright, doesn't make it so. IMO he should be defrocked, but that is for another thread some other time.

my 2 cents,

eric.

[Keith]

Quite true IR, but DadE has just quoted one of my favourite passages from Rom.14. If a person likes to have the odd drink or smoke and feels as if it doesn't hinder him/her self in their christian walk, don't do it in such a way that it would cause a brother or sister to stumble in their walk. Keep it between your self and God and don't try and tell others that is okay. People are struggling with such vices and to quote your own personal thoughts are not going to help. It is bad witnessing.

On a larger scale. the archbishop of Canterbury is gay and

[Keith]

QUOTE FROM: Christ's Free Servant, Mar 4 2005, 03:15 PM

Do yourself a favor. Try an experiment. I've tried this and I know it works. Put the TV, the movies, the games away for a month or so and replace that time with family time, walks in the park, getting together with friends to play a group game, spending time reading the Bible, praying, reading Christian books, riding a bike, etc. And, after you have been away from the stuff you see no harm in, then go back and try it again and see if you notice anything.

ABSOLUTELY!

I did this and, I'm telling you the truth, your life will be changed by it.

I decided to go two months (one month will do). I did not watch any TV, movies or videos that did not directly praise God. I didn't listen to or read anything that didn't directly honor God. I don't drink, but if I did, I would have added that to the list. The point was, I took the things of the world out of the way and replaced them with the things of God.

The result? I found myself happier, contented, rested, my friends noticed changes in me, strangers would be "attracted" to me (in a "who is this guy?" way). I heard God's voice easier without the distractions. It made me yearn for a deeper life in Him, which, in turn, is currently causing me to want to go deeper still.

I cancelled my cable nine months ago and now don't get any TV channels whatsoever. I don't miss television at all! I still watch some movies, (NetFlix) but I am very discerning. If it's a PG-13 movie, I want to know why it's PG-13. PG-13 movies are the rated R movies of yesterday. I will read non-Christian fiction once in awhile, depending on the content.

The point is, I didn't want to go back to those other things I had given up. I had found the better way and it really made a difference! I'm still far from perfect, but this experiment was a major help in my walk with God.

I personally challenge everyone reading this to try it...

[Guest ang357pat]

In romans does it not say I would do that which is good but I do it not. In other words I try to do good but man whats wrong with me. It's this flesh body i live in; living in this cunning corrupt world that satan has devised. The cunningness of sin to creep into our lives in such a way that it looks harmless but it turns harmful in the end. Example during the election my husband and i have dear friend that goes to a well known baptist church in our town and it is nothing against their faith but he asked me who i was going to vote for and of course i was voting democrate don't throw nothing at me yall. He automaticly said that kerry was the anti-christ and that their church believes that kerry is the anti-christ and that if kerry and edwards gets voted in the raptures is desitined to happen. you can see how sin can creep in first kerry is not the vote to vote for and one person says one negative thing and then another. Sin is cunning and while it looks like it could not happen to you it can happen. He is a good man and a good christain man but in his mind at the baptist church the men have convince each other that kerry and Edwards was the anti-christ. and truly they were not the anti- christ. Sin can happen in such a sutle way it can blow your mind.

[Keith]

He automaticly said that kerry was the anti-christ and that their church believes that kerry is the anti-christ and that if kerry and edwards gets voted in the raptures is desitined to happen.

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This just goes to show how carelessly some people use their words. Of course there is no Biblical basis to this statement at all. It's only a strong opinion disguised as something Biblical so he could justify saying what he did. Kind of like how people will gossip and use the excuse that they are "just sharing this with you so you can pray for so-n-so."

This kind of talk gets very frustrating.

[dwinkjr]

Smoking? Sin or not? again this boils down to personal conviction. Am I saying this to justify my actions? nope... I say it because it is the truth I have been led to, for me it is ok to have a beer or two with dinner, for an alcoholic it is not. We have to be careful how legalistic we become.

Greetings Dwink,

Though to an extent I might agree with you, as I read your posts, it sounds like you are attempting to justify your own sins. One thing you haven't mentioned is the example you or I might set for others. This perhaps is the most important aspect of what we can or should not do. I am reminded by Paul:

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Romans 14:13-17 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

When others see you drinking, are they seeing "Christ" drinking? If they do, then do you "justify" you actions in hopes that if they are weak they won't begin embibing themselves? As shown above, it is more "expedient" for us to avoid any hint of "sin", so as not to cause a fellow Christian to fall, or for that matter, even unbelievers, when they see you, do they consider you a hypocrite?

Well, I am not accusing you of anything. But these are thoughts you need to consider when you are justifying your actions.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

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DE,

Who created this standard of alcohol being so terrible? Why is it now that others who see me have a drink or two at dinner would get a bad impression because of it? I would much rather educate those on what the bible teaches then teach them to condemn what is not sin. The Bible clearly teaches against Being a Drunkard, but it is also very clear that alcohol was consumed in biblical times and by Christ himself.

I understand what you are saying, but lets say tomorrow it becomes "un-Christianlike" to be a soldier, and all the unsaved folks in the world see Christians in the armed forces as hypocrits, do we then as Christians stop joining the armed forces? How about if driving cars becomes "un-christian" do we then stop driving cars to not hurt our image in the eyes of unbelievers? So maybe we should all renounce everything we own and go join an amish community? But then after we do that, maybe somebody says its un-christian to make those horses pull those buggies, So we stop using horses for transportation.

You see where I am going with this, this is not a matter of whether I need to justify my actions, I couldn't care less if I had a drink here of there, but this whole mindset of agreeing with the mass opinion as opposed to properly educating them just doesn't sit well at all.

God Bless,

Dave

[dwinkjr]

So, if you tell a lie, is it all right to tell a "little one"?

1 Corinthians 5:6 - Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 

Galatians 5:9 - A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Now you may not like to hear that, but it really is the truth. A "Little lie" is the same as a "Big Lie". A little drunk, is the same as wasted. A little smoke, is the same as hooked. It is all sin.

So Christ was a wasted sinner when he drank wine? Alcohol in and of itself is not Sin, where lying is, so you are comparing apples and oranges here.

So instead of teaching younger Christians to be responsible in all their actions you suggest we teach them not to act at all? So then what when they are out on their own and get exposed to something new?

To say alcohol comsumption is for the sole purpose of altering ones mind is nonesense, I could say the same thing about anything with caffeine in it. So Where do you draw the line? This brings me to one of the other problems with legalism you pick and choose items that you view as being problematic yet ignore those that are more widely accepted.

Do you drink Coffee? eat chocolate? Eat fatty foods? Eat just for the sake of eating even if you arn't really hungry? Eat to console depression? Watch TV for entertainment? Read secular books? Listen to secular music? Please tell me where does one draw the line? And when drawing the line how do you keep from being a hypocrit?

Problem is, Caffiene doesn't dull one's senses, etc. There are literally dozens of admonitions against drunkenness in the Bible, and between those, and the two verses I quoted above, and the known fact that cigarettes and alcohol destroy your body, it is obviously sin. Do we destroy our bodies? Do we destroy what God gave the Gifts of the Spirit to heal? Will a Christian knowingly keep smoking/drinking until they end up with lung cancer or liver disease, and then go to the altar and ask for healing? You may well do so, and the Lord may even answer, but you'd be better off quitting right now. Which is the better testimony? "The Lord convicted me and helped me stop smoking/drinking." or "Well, you know I got cancer from all those smokes I should have quit years ago, but praise God! He healed me. I think I'll quit now."

Caffeine is addictive and if allowed to do so can interfere with your Christian walk. say one is used to having a couple cups of coffee a morning, but on this particular Sunday morning they donot have time to drink any coffee before Church. So now they are not wide awake, lethargic, they have a headache from Caffeine withdrawls, and cannot enjoy the fellowship and worship of their Sunday service.

Now as far as destroying our bodies goes, there is nothing you can do that will not destroy your body. These bodies are temporary, they will be remade into glorified bodies with the second coming of our Lord. Does this mean we should go out and do things to excess and purposely abuse our bodies? No of course not, but to say one should avoid anything because it COULD cause health issues later is just plain silly.

Regarding tattoos.

Leviticus 19:28 - Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 21:5 - They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.

I suggest taking a better look at the context of these verses

There is also a definite difference between "Legalism" and "Holiness". Legalism is trying to earn favor with God through good works, such as church attendance, tithing/offering, reading 'x' chapters a day of the Bible, praying 30 minutes a day, etc, etc. Basically it is placing one's faith in ordinance and regimin.

Legalism is taking your personal convictions and opinions and turning them into the law of God.

1 Corinthians 7:18 - Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

1 Corinthians 7:19 - Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So then we see that the commandments, the "Thou shalt/shalt nots." is NOT what Paul was addressing regarding "Circumcision". He was addressing the fact that the Jews believe they were saved through the seal of the Old Covenant, which was actually never the case. It was always by faith.

Galatians 5:2 - Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Galatians 5:3 - For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 5:11 - And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Galatians 6:15 - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Gal. 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

In otherwords, the ordinance in and of itself is neither good nor evil. It won't save you, but then again people who have been circumcised, observe "blue laws/sabbath", etc, are not sinning either. HOWEVER if they go around thinking that doing/not doing such saves them, or rebuking people that don't do them, or claiming that it somehow adds something to their spiritual condition, then it IS sin. Why? Because that is "Another Gospel".

Kinda like saying Alcohol consumption is a sin?

Now HOPEFULLY the "New Creature" will walk after the Spirit(Rom. 6, 8; Gal. 5:22-26), and not the Flesh(Rom. 7; Gal. 5:19-21). We see then, that many of the "Works of the Flesh", when compared to "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." it basically means, "Don't do it, period." Which brings up the other word:

Holiness is being abstinent, or seperated from sin. Big difference.

Psalms 119:101 - I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.

Proverbs 8:13 - The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

2 Corinthians 7:1 - Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Ephesians 4:24 - And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Leviticus 20:7 - Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

1 Peter 1:15 - But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1 Peter 1:16 - Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Revelation 18:20 - Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 - To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:7 - For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Now this is a process. As far as the Work of the Cross of Jesus Christ goes, all that will ever need to be done on his part has been fulfilled. HOWEVER, we are still in this mortal clay, and consequently cannot be totally sanctified in terms of total holiness. Because of the Blood, God sees us as Holy, Righteous, Justified, Innocent, NOt Guilty, Clean, Sanctified, and any other good word you can think of, because in truth he is looking at the workds of Christ on the Cross, and of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. HOWEVER, we have from Paul that we certainly have not attained, nor will atain in this life. The most sanctified believer alive is as a child compared to what we will be when the Lord calls us home:

1 Cor. 13: 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

This is one of the most oft quoted passages from Pauline epistles, and yet it is one of the least understood by any of us. No matter how far the Lord has brought us, about the only thing we really can understand in this life is that sin is far worse than we can imagine, we have much farther to go than we can imagine, and that the Lord loves us more than we can imagine.

The devil loves to make you see a gray line, but all the Lord sees is black and white. He says to the Laodiceans, "I would that you were hot or cold, but because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vommit you out of my mouth." Friends, I don't want to be the vommit. I don't think you do either.

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God Bless,

Dave

[Shelby]

Sorry, have to jump back in here.

I can't see being a soldier, or driving even in the same boat as comparable to Drinking or doing drugs. Not even apples to oranges, more like apples to beef.

We are talking about what is culturally acceptable, we are talking about living in a way that would not tolerate sin to creep in. Like I said in a previous response....

So if you were at home, and no one was around, and you decided, hey I'd like to enjoy a couple beers, nobody is here and I am comfortable with it. So you have a few beers, or a couple. But then an hour later, you get a call that someone needs you to come immediately to the hospital? Hmmmmm if you had 3 pepsi's you could drive yourself......

This isn't about limiting the Christian in his/her ojurney to holiness, it is about creating a journey with the least casualties, and a journey that is God centered. Drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc... these are selfish things. They are personal choices that have nothing to do with God. They give the individual a pay off, a release, a high, a buzz, that satisfies a longing. But they neglect to see that God can fill that longing. He can be the there to quench your thirst at dinner, he can be there to help you chill after a very long work day, he can be there in those moments when you just need to relax. I find it to be, a lack of faith that God is enough.

Like above, it would be nice to think that they things we do in private don't affect other people but they do eventually. I know this full well. Things affect you, and whether you choose to think so or not, you cannot hide who you truly are in the end. I again, ask you to answer the above question asked by me in an earlier post.

What kind of example would you be if on your way to the hospital you were pulled over, and found to have been drinking alcohol, or under the influence of drugs?

What would you do if you chose not to drive, call someone and say, well, I need you to come take me to the hospital, because I drank alcohol tonight, and I don't want to take the chance. Whether you think that the person you call will be okay with it or not, it is showing poor judgement, and an inaccurate witness of a Christian striving for holiness.

MHO

[dwinkjr]

Sorry, have to jump back in here. 

I can't see being a soldier, or driving even in the same boat as comparable to Drinking or doing drugs.  Not even apples to oranges, more like apples to beef.

The point is not in whether the topics are comparable the point once again is where does one draw the line. When do we stop giving up things that are ok, and start educating the masses on what the Bible says.

We are talking about what is culturally acceptable, we are talking about living in a way that would not tolerate sin to creep in.  Like I said in a previous response....

So if you were at home, and no one was around, and you decided, hey I'd like to enjoy a couple beers, nobody is here and I am comfortable with it. So you have a few beers, or a couple. But then an hour later, you get a call that someone needs you to come immediately to the hospital? Hmmmmm if you had 3 pepsi's you could drive yourself......

Here you are assuming that when one drinks they are drinking in excess to the point of legal intoxication, this is not the case for anyone who is drinking responsibly and in moderation.

This isn't about limiting the Christian in his/her ojurney to holiness, it is about creating a journey with the least casualties, and a journey that is God centered. Drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc... these are selfish things. They are personal choices that have nothing to do with God. They give the individual a pay off, a release, a high, a buzz, that satisfies a longing. But they neglect to see that God can fill that longing. He can be the there to quench your thirst at dinner, he can be there to help you chill after a very long work day, he can be there in those moments when you just need to relax. I find it to be, a lack of faith that God is enough.

Like above, it would be nice to think that they things we do in private don't affect other people but they do eventually. I know this full well. Things affect you, and whether you choose to think so or not, you cannot hide who you truly are in the end. I again, ask you to answer the above question asked by me in an earlier post.

What kind of example would you be if on your way to the hospital you were pulled over, and found to have been drinking alcohol, or under the influence of drugs?

What would you do if you chose not to drive, call someone and say, well, I need you to come take me to the hospital, because I drank alcohol tonight, and I don't want to take the chance. Whether you think that the person you call will be okay with it or not, it is showing poor judgement, and an inaccurate witness of a Christian striving for holiness.

Again at no point do a drink to a point that I cannot function normally, nor is it for a buzz or to relax. It is simply because after a hard days work, I on occassion enjoy a beer or two. This does not constitute a lack of faith that God can provide everything I need. You are making false assumptions based off of your personal history.

MHO

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God Bless,

Dave

[Shelby]

Sorry, have to jump back in here.