The Purpose & Scope Of Apologetics

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I had the great privilege of studying under John W. Montgomery, and he described apologetics this way, more or less:

We get our word apologetics, from the Greek word apologia, as found in 1 Peter 3:15-16.

15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.

That word, defense, is the same term as used in a court of law. It is a reasoned response, supplemented with evidence for one's position. 

He notes of course, that the defense is to those who ask, a reason for our hope. He points out also, that our hope, is in the 'word'. Going on, he points out that the word, is a two fold idea. One, is the word of God, the Bible, the things that God has told us. This is important, because this is where we have the authoritative information on what it is that we hope. If we cannot defend the Bible, then people will dispense with what we say, as irrelevant or untrustworthy.

Second, the word is the Word of God, God's Son (John 1:1). That is where our hope really lies, apart from  Him, we are all lost in sin.

So, we are commanded to take the gospel (matt 28:20-21) to every creature (as disciples) and then we are tasked with studying (2 Tim 2:15) not only what we know, but to be able to defend it. May Christians are content to be lazy, and neither preach the gospel, nor study God's word, nor undertanding why it is rejected (intellectually) nor being ready to defend what we believe.

The idea, is not to be right about the rapture, or being able to demonstrate how so many animals could fit on the ark, those are side issues. Where we want to focus our efforts, it on areas that help people dispense with doubts, and move towards faith in Christ.

Ultimately, we cannot give faith to anyone, but we can help them overcome some obstacles to it. If you are doing apologetics, as a subspecies of evangelism, then you are doing apologetics for Biblical reasons.

Notice, that Peter tells us, to do so, with humility and respect, and to be on our best behavior, because when we confront unbelief, we are doing so as represenatives of Jesus, and we do not need to sully His name, because of our pride.

Hi Omegaman,

Some really good thoughts there. Well explained & straightforward. It does take a work of the Holy Spirit to `do it in a spirit of gentleness & reverence.` Just one `defense` as per your own comments -

`The idea, is not to be right about the rapture, or being able to demonstrate how so many animals could fit on the ark, those are side issues.`

I would definitely NOT put why the Lord `catches away` the Body of Christ in the same category as the number of animals in the ark. Definitely NOT a side issue, but paramount to God`s purposes for Christ & His Body.

`God....may send Jesus Christ,.....whom heaven must receive until the time of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 21)

Couldn`t let that error (as I see it) slide in like that.

Marilyn.

BTW I don`t want to turn this into a pre-mid whatever discussion, as I know you don`t either. But just a `gentle` reminder that I`m here.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Omegaman 3.0]

38 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

I would definitely NOT put why the Lord `catches away` the Body of Christ in the same category as the number of animals in the ark. Definitely NOT a side issue, but paramount to God`s purposes for Christ & His Body.

Marilyn, I do not mean it is a side issue, as in unimportant. The Bible has a lot to say about eschatology, so it must be important. Looiking forward to His appearing, is what beleivers do, we love it, yearn for it, very important.

All I am meaning there, is that the millenium, the rapture, the tribulation, etc. are in-house discussion by which no one is saved or lost. That is what makes them secondary in apologetics.

The character of God, the sinfuless of man, the separation and loss those things create, death, the second death, and eternal life and the second birth, and how that knits together, is what I think the gospel consists of.

The gospel is good news. When I was an athiest, I had no need of the gospel, I was happy, ignorant of what would have been my destiny eternally. Thankfully, an obedient Christian teacher at my high school, though my salvation was more important than keeping his job. His challenges to my skepticism, piqued my curiousity. It took t2n years after that, before I cam to know my savior. That, is what apologetics rightfully does, in my opinion.

Here, admittdly, the question of "how could all of those animals, fit on the ark?" was relevant. However, even if he could have proved to me that God was real and the creator of the universe, that information is not that important. Satan believes as much.

Questions like the ark, or the end of the age, are not insignificant, but they are not ultimate questions. The focus is on Jesus. If asked, about the peripheral issues, I will answer such  questions, but will also steer back to the topic, that being the person's relationship with God, everything else is a distraction, and even for Christians, distractions from focusing on serving and worshipping God. These things become hobby horses.

It is not a matter of one or the other, we need to know both, but apolgetics, should ultimately be about helping the lost discover their creator, the Lord of all.

Disagree?

[Marilyn C]

18 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Marilyn, I do not mean it is a side issue, as in unimportant. The Bible has a lot to say about eschatology, so it must be important. Looiking forward to His appearing, is what beleivers do, we love it, yearn for it, very important.

All I am meaning there, is that the millenium, the rapture, the tribulation, etc. are in-house discussion by which no one is saved or lost. That is what makes them secondary in apologetics.

The character of God, the sinfuless of man, the separation and loss those things create, death, the second death, and eternal life and the second birth, and how that knits together, is what I think the gospel consists of.

The gospel is good news. When I was an athiest, I had no need of the gospel, I was happy, ignorant of what would have been my destiny eternally. Thankfully, an obedient Christian teacher at my high school, though my salvation was more important than keeping his job. His challenges to my skepticism, piqued my curiousity. It took t2n years after that, before I cam to know my savior. That, is what apologetics rightfully does, in my opinion.

Here, admittdly, the question of "how could all of those animals, fit on the ark?" was relevant. However, even if he could have proved to me that God was real and the creator of the universe, that information is not that important. Satan believes as much.

Questions like the ark, or the end of the age, are not insignificant, but they are not ultimate questions. The focus is on Jesus. If asked, about the peripheral issues, I will answer such  questions, but will also steer back to the topic, that being the person's relationship with God, everything else is a distraction, and even for Christians, distractions from focusing on serving and worshipping God. These things become hobby horses.

It is not a matter of one or the other, we need to know both, but apolgetics, should ultimately be about helping the lost discover their creator, the Lord of all.

Disagree?

Hi Omegaman,

You do surprise me. We actually get to talk a bit. Read you post in the Seeker section & you do have such a heart for the lost. God`s heart I see. Now without going too far into this side issue, though it does pertain to apologetics. Yes I agree that the Rapture is not a major focus for people coming to know the Lord, BUT I see that `as you see the Day approaching` it becomes a very, very important scriptural topic for apologetics. I believe we will have this eschatological truth clarified by the Holy Spirit for the Body to come to full maturity in Christ.

regards, Marilyn.

[Omegaman 3.0]

18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

BUT I see that `as you see the Day approaching` it becomes a very, very important scriptural topic for apologetics. I believe we will have this eschatological truth clarified by the Holy Spirit for the Body to come to full maturity in Christ.

Mind you as I said, it is not that I think Eschatology is unimportant, and I think the evidence of that is that I have plenty of posts in these forums to show my interest. In fact, I am a vocal critic of those who call themselves "Pan-Trib", as long as it all pans out. As I see that, it implies that it doesn't matter that God inspired so much material on prophecy, He was just bored and had nothing better to do. On the contrary "All scripture is inspired and useful . . . ".

That people are not interested, means that they are not interested in the things of God, just some of the things of God. If I were God, I would be insulted that those who claim to love me, are not interested in what I have to say. I think I have made my point on that aspect of the topic.

To be clear, all I was trying to say, was that 'apologetics' in a secular sense, is just lawerly defense of something, politics has apologists. My only real point, was in this specific thread, the purpose and scope of apologetics, is that I believe the proper Biblical sense, has more to do with reaching the lost, a sub-set of evangelism, or one tool in the toolbox of the evangelist, to achieve the goal of reaching the lost. I guess is see apologetics as having and end, not an end in itself, so I tend to see it purpose more narrowly, that some to.

So, regarding Eschatology, I do not seek to minimize it's importance, if anything, my position is not that in belongs under the category of apologetics, but that it belongs alongside the category, as an important thing for Christians to study and understand.

Maybe I should say it this way, I think the Bible's focus on apologetics, has more to do with reaching the lost, but, apologetics as a tool in the general since, is also appropriate to improving dialogue and understanding on all sorts of matters, beyond evangelism only. We use is here, on in-house debates like soteriology, eschatology, ethics, morality and whatever comes up. Some of these things are more for the body of Christ, where as I see aplogetics in the normal Christian use of the term, as more outward focused.

[Marilyn C]

2 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Mind you as I said, it is not that I think Eschatology is unimportant, and I think the evidence of that is that I have plenty of posts in these forums to show my interest. In fact, I am a vocal critic of those who call themselves "Pan-Trib", as long as it all pans out. As I see that, it implies that it doesn't matter that God inspired so much material on prophecy, He was just bored and had nothing better to do. On the contrary "All scripture is inspired and useful . . . ".

That people are not interested, means that they are not interested in the things of God, just some of the things of God. If I were God, I would be insulted that those who claim to love me, are not interested in what I have to say. I think I have made my point on that aspect of the topic.

To be clear, all I was trying to say, was that 'apologetics' in a secular sense, is just lawerly defense of something, politics has apologists. My only real point, was in this specific thread, the purpose and scope of apologetics, is that I believe the proper Biblical sense, has more to do with reaching the lost, a sub-set of evangelism, or one tool in the toolbox of the evangelist, to achieve the goal of reaching the lost. I guess is see apologetics as having and end, not an end in itself, so I tend to see it purpose more narrowly, that some to.

So, regarding Eschatology, I do not seek to minimize it's importance, if anything, my position is not that in belongs under the category of apologetics, but that it belongs alongside the category, as an important thing for Christians to study and understand.

Hi Omegaman,

Yes I hear what you are saying in regards to evangelism. However......looking at 1 Peter 3: 15 & 16 which you quoted further back I do not see the Apostle Peter putting a limitation on what we are to `defend.` You said -

`We get our word apologetics, from the Greek word apologia, as found in 1 Peter 3:15-16.

15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.

That word, defense, is the same term as used in a court of law. It is a reasoned response, supplemented with evidence for one's position.`

And I know you give an account of the hope that is in you regarding the `catching away,` etc, & that topic is part of the `good news,` our hope. Now more than ever amidst the greatest battle we have ever had to face as believers, we need the full `good news,` so that we are all `caught up` together when God says, & know WHY it is happening. The WHY is related to HIM & that is what the `good news` is all about, not just about ME & being given a free ride, but HIM who gave all & WHY He is coming back for us.

It is not escapism as some think & will not escape the fire, but the hope that glorious hope that is within us that we are His body, connected to Him & when He is enthroned visibly in glory amid the myriads of angelic beings, then His Body will be there to crown Him, crown Him, crown Him, Lord of All.

You have a big heart Omega, may the Lord bless you & yours, Marilyn.  

[Omegaman 3.0]

Marilyn,

When you quoted my comments about 1 Pet 3:15, my mind immdeiately went there and jumped to that part about "for the hope that you have". Then I read where you said: "And I know you give an account of the hope that is in you regarding the `catching away`", and I just knew you were going to go to the 'fact' that our "blessed hope" is Jesus coming to catch us all away, the rapture.

Thank you for disappoining me, as I am weary of the "blessed hope" being part to the mantra of Darbyists (pre-trib rapture dispensationalists, for those who to not follow the rapture debate closely). Again, for the benefit of those who may have heard this argument about the blessed hope, I will give the context of the term:

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

I think there we can see that since Tit 2:13 says we are looking for (anticipating something future) the blessed hope, we can  rule out that the blessed hope is Jesus Himself, something I once believed. More exactly, it is not that it is NOT about Him, but that it is a future aspect of Him, and of course, that is why it is a hope - hopes have not been fully realized. I would point out also, to the general reading audience of this post, that this hope is not like a wish, it is not a hope as in "Gee, I sure wish such and such happens", it is that kind of hope, that is anticipating something that is a certainty.

Regarding this hope in the above verse, we see that it is tied specifically to an aspect of Jesus, that is His appearing, language associated with His second coming, visibly, which according to scripture, is immediately after the great tribulation (Matt 24).

The Glorious Return

      29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, ANDTHE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I know Marilyn, that this is not lost on you, you have looked into these things deeply. This part is for the benefit of those who will read this in the future, who might wonder what we are even talking about.

Again, I thank you that you did not go down the "blessed hope" path in your reply, even though as part of the good news of the gospel, it could have been connected to my opinion  (not contention, btw), that apologetics really belongs more to that narrow category, than to just mere argumentation of doctrine etc, within the church. BTW, I am ready to concede your point, that I really have no business, making the use of the word so narrow (my words not yours). 

In the end, it doesn't really matter to me, as in the broader sense of apologetics, making a reasoned defense, is fine, on all points of scripture. We still use it, and keep things (or can) in balance, regardless of how we envision the use to the word itself, the outcome is still the same. I guess the only thing I will still cling to in my sense of apologetics, is the importance, of being able to defend that gospel to a skeptical world, as being of higher importance than pridefully proving ourselves right (which rarely really happens anyway, lol) with the "my doctrine is right because I am smarter than you" attitude that seems to pervade many who practice apologetics here in the forums. I guess that the ugly side of human pride, is something that disturbs me a bit, since I tend to see apologetics as almost holy ground.

To all reading, and especially to the O.P. I apologize for letting this thread go so far off track, diverting from the purpose of apologetics and into an almost eschatological (regarding the things of the end times) thread.

One thing though Marilym, that I will briefly comment on about your most recent post here is this:

"we need the full `good news,` so that we are all `caught up` together when God says, & know WHY it is happening. The WHY is related to HIM & that is what the `good news` is all about, not just about ME & being given a free ride, but HIM who gave all & WHY He is coming back for us.:

There I have a fundamental disagreement, and always have had it with your appoach to things, and it is one reason why I seldom engage you in dialogue. You used the word "why" three times in a short space. This is tied to a common theme in many of your posts. You often speak to the "purpose" of God. Personally, I do not believe that knowing God's purposes, and motivations, are always that helpful. I see people jumping to conclusions of the "what and when" of God, based on their assessment of what God is thinking when He does something. I tend to think of God as sovereign, as my Lord, and that as a servant, I do not always need to know His reasons. He says do it, I do it. He says believe it, I believe it.

As an example, I do not know how many times I have heard "the purpose of the tribulation is . . . " and then what follows is suposed to be a reason why some particulary timing is how it is. I think that is an unwise approach to exegesis, and therefore I focus on what God says, not trying to comphend why He does certain things His way, leaning on my own understanding of God, which is so limited.

Anyway Marilyn, thank you for your dialogue, yu are always so patient and polite, your cool headedness is always a breath of fresh air. In that you fulfill the admonition of 1 Pet 3:15: "yet with gentleness and reverence".

With that, I am done with the topic, at least for now, blessings!

[Guest shiloh357]

On 12/24/2016 at 2:02 AM, Ezra said:

It is my understanding that Apologetics is to aid the unbeliever in seeing Christianity as a solid "religion" (if you will), while defending it against skeptics.  I believe too much is made of Apologetics and not enough of the Gospel itself.  It is the preaching of the Gospel that brings sinners to salvation.

Apologetics is useful in terms of addressing the honest questions of honest skeptics who are truly seeking answers.  It helps to provide intellectually satisfying answers to questions and solutions to problems that serve as an impediment to skeptics even being willing to listen to a Gospel presentation.   Paul used one aspect of apologetics when he appealed to fulfilled Scripture relative to the coming of Christ when he debated in the synagogues, so it has its place. It doesn't replace the Gospel presentation, but it does aid in it.