The Torah tells us Jesus is not the Messiah it prophesies?

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, soonsister said:

I make a sincere inquiry in this discussion for clarification. Does that make me not a Christian?

I'm not sure what "clarification" you are looking for.  The Jews (by and large) rejected their Messiah from the get-go, so why should Christians get all anxious about the Jewish viewpoint? Everything is already revealed in the NT, and Paul had to ultimately turn away from the Jews.

25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. (Acts 28:25-29).

[soonsister]

1 hour ago, Zach said:

Sorry, I wasn't screaming at you. I sometimes get irritated when people can not appreciate more than one view of the text insisting their view is the only right view. They need a wake up call. They need a little screaming.

whispering......the point is the text can be viewed in two acceptable ways, those who deny this have an agenda and are not interested in the truth.

as for the reference you quoted, its an interpretation. The word used in Isaiah 7:14 can be interpreted two ways. So the contention is if being a "virgin" is of paramount importanance, the question must be asked then why wasn't the specific Hebrew word for virgin used?

I find it a peculiar tactic that you employ in order to get your point across. You demonstrate the very thing you claim necessitates a wake up call for others.

I would wonder why you have an issue with the term itself; virgin.

To my knowledge the new testament does not tell us exactly how old Mary was, which wasn't her Hebrew name in translation, when she became pregnant with our savior. However, when I sought out sources referring to that specific detail about Mary the presumption among scholars that I saw referenced is that she was a young girl. Not what we'd call an adult, meaning past the age of 18.

Therefore, she would necessarily be presumed to be a girl that never knew a man sexually when she was betrothed to Joseph. Also not the Hebrew name but a transliteration.

If your issue is translation then you have many issues in the whole of the Mary story. Starting with her name.

However, you appear to focus on the virgin aspect of the story. And the translation factors in both the old and new testaments?

Mary was a mere girl at the time of conception. Therefore she would be a virgin . 

Otherwise, as many know, being a girl that was unwed , were she not a virgin she would be in sin. And that then poses the question to you. Would God allow a sinner to conceive his only begotten son?

 

[soonsister]

18 minutes ago, Ezra said:

I'm not sure what "clarification" you are looking for.  The Jews (by and large) rejected their Messiah from the get-go, so why should Christians get all anxious about the Jewish viewpoint? Everything is already revealed in the NT, and Paul had to ultimately turn away from the Jews.

25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. (Acts 28:25-29).

You did not answer the question I asked and that you quoted there.

[Zach]

15 minutes ago, soonsister said:

I would wonder why you have an issue with the term itself;

because arrogant christians in their ignorance thinking this is a slam dunk, air tight case for yeshua as messiah end up with egg on their face, thus supporting the jewish position and depriving them of the gospel.

this is one of the reasons why Yeshua called us to be shrewd; so we don't look like bumbling idiots utilizing their holy scriptures. if a christian is going to use this verse, they should be educated as to its weakness' and the method of interpretation matthew used to draw this meaning from isaiah.

(all caps removed for your reading pleasure)

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Zach said:

because arrogant christians in their ignorance thinking this is a slam dunk, air tight case for yeshua as messiah end up with egg on their face, thus supporting the jewish position and depriving them of the gospel.

this is one of the reasons why Yeshua called us to be shrewd; so we don't look like bumbling idiots utilizing their holy scriptures. if a christian is going to use this verse, they should be educated as to its weakness' and the method of interpretation matthew used to draw this meaning from isaiah.

(all caps removed for your reading pleasure)

Do you reject the virgin birth of Jesus?

[Zach]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

Do you reject the virgin birth of Jesus?

I reject a the belief that person has to believe in the virgin birth as prerequisite to salvation or a condition of continued salvation.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Zach said:

I reject a the belief that person has to believe in the virgin birth as prerequisite to salvation or a condition of continued salvation.

That's not what I asked you.   Do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin?

we

[Zach]

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

That's not what I asked you.   Do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin?

we

I can make a case for either side. I believe it doesn't matter what is believed.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Zach

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Zach said:

I can make a case for either side. I believe it doesn't matter.

We can add that to the list of topics in the soapbox if you like, as it bears directly on Jesus deity.  I have requested of Steve that he set it up.  He should contact you shortly.

[soonsister]

1 hour ago, Zach said:

because arrogant christians in their ignorance thinking this is a slam dunk, air tight case for yeshua as messiah end up with egg on their face, thus supporting the jewish position and depriving them of the gospel.

this is one of the reasons why Yeshua called us to be shrewd; so we don't look like bumbling idiots utilizing their holy scriptures. if a christian is going to use this verse, they should be educated as to its weakness' and the method of interpretation matthew used to draw this meaning from isaiah.

(all caps removed for your reading pleasure)

Perhaps you can educate the arrogant bumbling Christians.

Please show the verse , or the proper term that I'm missing, so as to demonstrate the error in believing Mary was a single young woman who was not a virgin.

I read you making statements about the method of interpretation Matthew used to draw this meaning from Isaiah. However, I don't read an educated proof that publishes that method here.