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The Holy Trinity?


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Guest shiloh357
3 minutes ago, Zach said:

It's extremely doubtful to think you could come up with the trinity doctrine all by yourself by just reading Scripture when it took the "church fathers" almost 200 years!

You're fooling yourself, your interpretation of Scripture has been long ago pre-digested for you and regurgitated as a mother bird to its young.

Oh I study other teachers, but I study teachers who are teachers of Scripture and sound theology.  But you have to remember, that the doctrine of the trinity took on lots of different forms back during the early years of the church.  That's why I don't study them, except for the historical value that we can glean from them.

The doctrine of the Trinity is well attested in the Bible.  And I have a lot of gratitude to the theologians who have laid the groundwork to show what the Bible says about it.  God used them to bless the rest of us.

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25 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

That's not true.  He is mentioned as part of the Godhead and functioning in cooperation with the Father and the Son. 

/ Bible verse?

That is incorrect.   According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is a very personal being.  For instance,  He can be lied to, grieved, communed with, He has a mind, and He is a comforter, He prays with us and on our behalf, He indwells us and reminds us that we belong to Jesus, He is a teacher, He convicts us of sin and He is the one who guides us into all truth.   So He is actually quite personal.  You really have to ignore a pretty wide portion of Scripture about the Holy Spirit to say that He is not a personal being.

/ Like I said, the Holy Spirit has been personified. If you're going to take these to mean that the HS is a person, you have to take ALL verses that imply what the HS is. Joel 2:28 talks about the Spirit being "poured out". can a person be "poured out"?

No, I didn't   He is as much God as God the Father is and that is attested by Jesus Himself.   He is not the same Person, but he is just as much God as the Father is.

/ Bible verse please?

The term "Son of God is not a paternal reference.   God the Father is not Jesus' paternal father and Jesus is not Gods' paternal Son.  So your "Bob" analogy is wrong.    God the Father and Jesus are equally God.  Paul points that out in Philippians 2:6-7.   Speaking of Jesus' incarnation, Paul said that even though Jesus was equal with God, He didn't view His equality with God as something to exploit to His own advantage.

/ John 3:16 "God gave His only BEGOTTEN Son..." Is the Bible a liar?

Notice in that passage from Isaiah where God the Father, Jesus and the Spirit of God are mentioned together in the same verse but as separate entities.

 Spirit of God = Holy Spirit.

/ can you please remind me of where this verse is?

 

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42 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I don't base my theology on the Church Fathers. The only reason I quoted them was to set the record straight about their views on the Trinity.   My theology is derived from Scripture and that includes the Trinity.

Honestly, if I was basing it off Scripture alone, I would never even come across the idea of the Trinity.

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1 hour ago, Brittany said:

Nowhere is the Holy Spirit mentioned as a personal part of the trinity.

Incorrect. Please note (Matthew 28:19):

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching all nations is another way of saying "making disciples".

1. So when a person was saved, th first lesson in their discipleship was that they were to be baptized by immersion (without delay).  

2. The second lesson that they would learn immediately is that there are three Divine Persons in the Godhead -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

3. The third lesson they would learn is that this does not imply three Gods, but one God, hence "name" (singular).

There are also other Scripture to establish this truth, but this one should suffice.  So you should really retract that statement.

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Guest shiloh357
12 minutes ago, Brittany said:

That's not true.  He is mentioned as part of the Godhead and functioning in cooperation with the Father and the Son. 

/ Bible verse?

We have the Holy Spirit separate from God the Father hovering over the face of the deep in Gen. 1:2.  He was present at the creation and too part, evidently in the creation process.   We have the Holy Spirit cooperating with the Father in testifying to Jesus as God's son at Jesus' baptism and anointing Jesus for the ministry ahead of Him.   Those are just two references.   The Holy Spirit was sent by Jesus to birth the church on Pentacost just as Jesus promised.

Quote

/ Like I said, the Holy Spirit has been personified.

You may have said that, but that is incorrect.   The Holy Spirit is presented in the Bible as a person.  You can lie to a person, you can grieve a person, it is a person who can comfort or teach you, etc.  That is not personification.  That is personhood.

Quote

If you're going to take these to mean that the HS is a person, you have to take ALL verses that imply what the HS is. Joel 2:28 talks about the Spirit being "poured out". can a person be "poured out"?

Holy Spirit can and was poured out at Pentacost.   The Holy Spirit is a person.   He is not a human person, though.   You cannot pour out a human.  But the Holy Spirit is a spirit and He was poured out.  He is God.  There is nothing too hard for God.  Remember that that God does not conform to our carnal ideas and logic.   He transcends them.

Quote

 

No, I didn't   He is as much God as God the Father is and that is attested by Jesus Himself.   He is not the same Person, but he is just as much God as the Father is.

/ Bible verse please?

 

Did you not read all of the places out of the book of Revelation where Jesus calls Himself God, which posted in my first response to you?  Go up and read the multiple references mentioned there and the cross references to the passages in Isaiah where God the Father refers to himself by the same terminology.

Also note Heb. 1:8 where God the Father calls Jesus  "God."

Quote

 

The term "Son of God is not a paternal reference.   God the Father is not Jesus' paternal father and Jesus is not Gods' paternal Son.  So your "Bob" analogy is wrong.    God the Father and Jesus are equally God.  Paul points that out in Philippians 2:6-7.   Speaking of Jesus' incarnation, Paul said that even though Jesus was equal with God, He didn't view His equality with God as something to exploit to His own advantage.

/ John 3:16 "God gave His only BEGOTTEN Son..." Is the Bible a liar?

 

Jesus was begotten by God through the virgin Mary.   He is the only Person ever born that way in human history, thus the only begotten of God.  But that does NOT apply to Jesus as God.   As God, Jesus pre-existed His incarnation (John 1:1-3, John 17: 5, Phi. 2: 5-7 Col. 1:).

So as God, Jesus does not have a paternal relationship with God the Father.  "Son of God" is a reference to Jesus deity.  It is never a reference to His humanity.   "Son of God" is used carefully in the book of John to indicate that Jesus is God.  The phrase "Son of"  is also a Hebraism that denotes equality between something and the object it is compared to.   Jesus referred to James and John as sons of thunder.  He referred to the pharisees as "sons of hell"   The phrase was even used of Simon Bar Kochba (Son of a star) in a failed attempt to declare him to be the messiah.

Quote

 

Notice in that passage from Isaiah where God the Father, Jesus and the Spirit of God are mentioned together in the same verse but as separate entities.

 Spirit of God = Holy Spirit.

/ can you please remind me of where this verse is?

 

Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go (Is. 48:16-17)

 

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Guest shiloh357
21 minutes ago, Brittany said:

Honestly, if I was basing it off Scripture alone, I would never even come across the idea of the Trinity.

I didn't say I based my theology on Scripture alone.  I said my theology is derived from Scripture.  But I am taught by sound teachers and men who are skilled in properly dividing the word of truth.   I am careful who I listen to.  But I don't treat them as infallible.  Only Scripture is infallible.

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I want to remind you that I do believe in the deity of Christ. 

 

That verse in isaiah is not calling the HS God. 

The Word (Jesus) was begotten of God even before His birth on earth. That's where we get the "let US make man in OUR image." That was God talking to His Son. 

In Gen 1:2, we have no reason to believe the Spirit is separate from god. Scripture doesn't tell us this. It's only an assumption. 

And I know what you're saying about the being lied to and grieved etc. but those things do not give the HS personhood. 

do you believe your soul is a person?

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39 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

We have the Holy Spirit separate from God the Father hovering over the face of the deep in Gen. 1:2.  He was present at the creation and too part, evidently in the creation process.   We have the Holy Spirit cooperating with the Father in testifying to Jesus as God's son at Jesus' baptism and anointing Jesus for the ministry ahead of Him.   Those are just two references.   The Holy Spirit was sent by Jesus to birth the church on Pentacost just as Jesus promised.

You may have said that, but that is incorrect.   The Holy Spirit is presented in the Bible as a person.  You can lie to a person, you can grieve a person, it is a person who can comfort or teach you, etc.  That is not personification.  That is personhood.

Holy Spirit can and was poured out at Pentacost.   The Holy Spirit is a person.   He is not a human person, though.   You cannot pour out a human.  But the Holy Spirit is a spirit and He was poured out.  He is God.  There is nothing too hard for God.  Remember that that God does not conform to our carnal ideas and logic.   He transcends them.

Did you not read all of the places out of the book of Revelation where Jesus calls Himself God, which posted in my first response to you?  Go up and read the multiple references mentioned there and the cross references to the passages in Isaiah where God the Father refers to himself by the same terminology.

Also note Heb. 1:8 where God the Father calls Jesus  "God."

Jesus was begotten by God through the virgin Mary.   He is the only Person ever born that way in human history, thus the only begotten of God.  But that does NOT apply to Jesus as God.   As God, Jesus pre-existed His incarnation (John 1:1-3, John 17: 5, Phi. 2: 5-7 Col. 1:).

So as God, Jesus does not have a paternal relationship with God the Father.  "Son of God" is a reference to Jesus deity.  It is never a reference to His humanity.   "Son of God" is used carefully in the book of John to indicate that Jesus is God.  The phrase "Son of"  is also a Hebraism that denotes equality between something and the object it is compared to.   Jesus referred to James and John as sons of thunder.  He referred to the pharisees as "sons of hell"   The phrase was even used of Simon Bar Kochba (Son of a star) in a failed attempt to declare him to be the messiah.

Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go (Is. 48:16-17)

 

 

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Guest shiloh357
Quote

That verse in isaiah is not calling the HS God. 

He's the Holy Spirit and the Bible, in many places, as I have already noted applies divine attributes to the Holy Spirit.

 

Quote

The Word (Jesus) was begotten of God even before His birth on earth. That's where we get the "let US make man in OUR image." That was God talking to His Son. 

No, He was not begotten before His incarnation.   He was always pre-existent with the Father from the dateless eternal past. There is no time in the past  that Jesus didn't exist

Quote

In Gen 1:2, we have no reason to believe the Spirit is separate from god. Scripture doesn't tell us this. It's only an assumption. 

Well, if you're not willing to be fair about the evidence, then you make it out to be whatever you want it to be, or you can just deny that it says what it says.   But God and the Holy Spirit are mentioned separately in Genesis 1:1-2. 

Quote

And I know what you're saying about the being lied to and grieved etc. but those things do not give the HS personhood. 

I didn't say it gave him personhood.  I said that it proves He is a person.

Quote

do you believe your soul is a person?

That is an invalid comparison.  The Holy Spirit is not God's soul.

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Just now, shiloh357 said:

He's the Holy Spirit and the Bible, in many places, as I have already noted applies divine attributes to the Holy Spirit.

 

No, He was not begotten before His incarnation.   He was always pre-existent with the Father from the dateless eternal past. There is no time in the past  that Jesus didn't exist

Well, if you're not willing to be fair about the evidence, then you make it out to be whatever you want it to be, or you can just deny that it says what it says.   But God and the Holy Spirit are mentioned separately in Genesis 1:1-2. 

I didn't say it gave him personhood.  I said that it proves He is a person.

That is an invalid comparison.  The Holy Spirit is not God's soul.

I never denied that the HS was divine. Just that it's not a person. It's a force.  

Right. Because before everything was created, there was no such thing as time. But The Word (Jesus) was still begotten. Is it possible for us to understand this? Probably not, because we don't understand timelessness. 

Can you please point out the exact words that show us that they are separate?

what's the difference?

I would still like you to answer my question. It is relevant. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. 

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