missmuffet Posted January 13, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.80 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2017 3 hours ago, Fran C said: You could check my post below to Ezra. There's no sense in repeating anything. Kids in the 5th grade today have trouble reading English, let alone Old English. This is a general statement and does not refer to everyone My kids were reading when they wee 3 years old. This is not the norm. If a person can understand the KJV, fine. I have nothing against it. Fran I just do not like reading old English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted January 13, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.80 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2017 3 hours ago, Fran C said: You could check my post below to Ezra. There's no sense in repeating anything. Kids in the 5th grade today have trouble reading English, let alone Old English. This is a general statement and does not refer to everyone My kids were reading when they wee 3 years old. This is not the norm. If a person can understand the KJV, fine. I have nothing against it. Fran I just do not like reading old English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran C Posted January 13, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 337 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 214 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2017 Just now, missmuffet said: I just do not like reading old English. Amen. And there's no reason to!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 13, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,129 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,857 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2017 3 hours ago, The_Patriot2017 said: You know I hear that a lot, but the funny thing is you don't know what the original Greek says either. None of us do, the original texts no longer exist, or at least have not been found. So you can't say "that's what the original texts say" all you can say is "that's not what the texts I trust" say, and quite frankly I trust the texts the NASB uses, and the message found in John 3:16 saying "shall not" lines up with Gods promises elsewhere in scripture a lot better then "should not" I know what the Greek in the texts we do have says and to go along with your thoughts here would make me question everything the Bible says... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted January 13, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,710 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,526 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted January 13, 2017 15 minutes ago, other one said: I know what the Greek in the texts we do have says and to go along with your thoughts here would make me question everything the Bible says... Acts 16:31 says believe on the Lord Jesus and you shalt be saved. That lines up perfectly with the NASB version version of John 3:16 where it says if you believe you shall not perish. After all, if you should not perish that leaves room for doubt-which acts 16:31 does not leave any room for doubt. And there are many other examples in the Bible where there is absolutely no doubt in the text. And it's still technically true using the word shouldn't. Yes it leaves room for doubt, but technically it's still saying if you believe your not going to perish. it's not "wrong" but I hold "shall not" is still the better translation. I wouldn't question everything the Bible says...just keep in mind there's a lot of different Greek texts out there that they pull from, and without the original its difficult to prove one is better then the other, instead we need to have faith that God preserved His holy word and is still moving in our hearts today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 13, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,129 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,857 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2017 21 minutes ago, The_Patriot2017 said: Acts 16:31 says believe on the Lord Jesus and you shalt be saved. That lines up perfectly with the NASB version version of John 3:16 where it says if you believe you shall not perish. After all, if you should not perish that leaves room for doubt-which acts 16:31 does not leave any room for doubt. And there are many other examples in the Bible where there is absolutely no doubt in the text. And it's still technically true using the word shouldn't. Yes it leaves room for doubt, but technically it's still saying if you believe your not going to perish. it's not "wrong" but I hold "shall not" is still the better translation. I wouldn't question everything the Bible says...just keep in mind there's a lot of different Greek texts out there that they pull from, and without the original its difficult to prove one is better then the other, instead we need to have faith that God preserved His holy word and is still moving in our hearts today. People who believed but did not make it.... Matt 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' NASB Luke 6:46-49 46 "And why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47 "Everyone who comes to Me, and hears My words, and acts upon them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation upon the rock; and when a flood rose, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 "But the one who has heard, and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house upon the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great." NASB Matt 25:9-13 10 "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. 11 "And later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.' 12 "But he answered and said, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.' 13 "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour. NASB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted January 13, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,710 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,526 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted January 13, 2017 There's a noted difference between believing there is a God and actually believing in Him. There are two ways "believe" is used in the Bible, one is to put your faith in Him like in John 3:16 and acts 16:31 and the other is believing in the presence of a God, like in the verses you posted. John 3:16 is talking about salvation, about the putting faith in God, which is what makes "shall not" the better translation. Context is key here, because if the belief in John 3:16 and acts 16:31 was used the same as the verses you quoted, then we would have some very apparent contradictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran C Posted January 13, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 337 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 214 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2017 4 hours ago, The_Patriot2017 said: Mine says shall not, which is what I hold it should say. I don't think should not us a bad translation, but shall not is more accurate in my opinion. Hi Patriot, I don't mean to be petty when there's so much going on here, I have: The Open Bible New American Standard Nelson (publisher) 1979 John 3:16 says "should not" perish. So they've made a change if yours has "shall not". I find this surprising. I agree with you that the two words mean something different. Should not means something could go either way. Shall not is affirmative and final. Big difference! Fran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 13, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2017 50 minutes ago, Fran C said: I agree with you that the two words mean something different. I do believe the words shall, should, or what ever is put into this sentence was done so to bring scripture up to modern times and is not part of the original sentence. I say this because every book I look in or every site I look through does not have a number for any of these words. If anyone can find a reference number (Gxxx), please let me know where you found it and what the reference number is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran C Posted January 13, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 337 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 214 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, OneLight said: I do believe the words shall, should, or what ever is put into this sentence was done so to bring scripture up to modern times and is not part of the original sentence. I say this because every book I look in or every site I look through does not have a number for any of these words. If anyone can find a reference number (Gxxx), please let me know where you found it and what the reference number is. Hi OneLight, Young's Literal Translation is the best we normal folk can do. For John 3:16 it uses the words "that everyone who is believing in Him may not perish." If you're really interested in this, I know someone who taught theology (and is a theologian) and knows koinè Greek. If you Private Message me to remind me, I will ask him - it's no problem, he loves to talk! It's just that I'm a bit under the weather this week. Let me know. Fran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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