i always wondered about this

[LadyKay]

2 minutes ago, Davida said:

That is hardly "ugly".  Anyone who calls that comment ugly ...hey! LOL!!  Want to trade lives mine is Really , really , really difficult & I've been through all sorts of hardship & I don't know what will happen from one day to the next....But I  do know that GOD is on HIS throne and JESUS is coming soon for His bride! 

I guess What some call ugly- for others it is equal to planting daisies...

Do you realize I am being beat to death here for using the word ugly. I understand if you disagree with me and do not think anything here is "getting ugly". But that is how I see it. So I said. Now I am having to debate rather or not it is "getting ugly" or not. Do you want me to just say fine your win? Nothing here is ugly? Would that make everything better? I guess as long as everyone sees everything they way you do we will all get along. SO fine. Nothing here is ugly. 

[LadyKay]

16 hours ago, Yowm said:

That's the usual line liberals use  to get their foot in the door. Scriptures are crystal clear, women are not to teach men and that is what pastors do.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
(1Ti 2:12-15)

 

This is what you said. 

[LadyKay]

Just now, Davida said:

You accused someone of getting ugly.

I did't accuse Someone of getting ugly! I said This was getting ugly! Meaning the Topic! Not Someone! 

[LadyKay]

1 minute ago, Davida said:

Can you drop the drama?  I asked you back a few posts then,  where was the ugliness? and you lead me to what someone ( Yowm) said to you in disagreement with your point of view . Seems claiming that the thread has gotten "ugly" is a way to shut down any further dialogue from others who disagree with your point of view.

I'm done! 

[Guest Thallasa]

6 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:

Amen~!

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 1 John 4:1-3 (New International Version)

And Though Most Of Our Precious

‘In the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. In those days I will pour out my Spirit even on my servants—men and women alike— and they will prophesy. Acts 2:17-18 (New Living Translation)

Preaching Women Minister Directly To The Needs Of Women

Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. Titus 2:3-5 (English Standard Version)

It Seems To Me That Some Still Object

Brothers and sisters, I don't want there to be any misunderstanding concerning spiritual gifts. You know that when you were unbelievers, every time you were led to worship false gods you were worshiping gods who couldn't even speak. So I want you to know that no one speaking by God's Spirit says, "Jesus is cursed." No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

There are different spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit gives them. There are different ways of serving, and yet the same Lord is served. There are different types of work to do, but the same God produces every gift in every person. The evidence of the Spirit's presence is given to each person for the common good of everyone. The Spirit gives one person the ability to speak with wisdom. The same Spirit gives another person the ability to speak with knowledge. To another person the same Spirit gives [courageous] faith. To another person the same Spirit gives the ability to heal. Another can work miracles. Another can speak what God has revealed. Another can tell the difference between spirits. Another can speak in different kinds of languages. Another can interpret languages. There is only one Spirit who does all these things by giving what God wants to give to each person.

For example, the body is one unit and yet has many parts. As all the parts form one body, so it is with Christ. By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether we are Jewish or Greek, slave or free, God gave all of us one Spirit to drink.

As you know, the human body is not made up of only one part, but of many parts. Suppose a foot says, "I'm not a hand, so I'm not part of the body!" Would that mean it's no longer part of the body? Or suppose an ear says, "I'm not an eye, so I'm not a part of the body!" Would that mean it's no longer part of the body? If the whole body were an eye, how could it hear? If the whole body were an ear, how could it smell? So God put each and every part of the body together as he wanted it. How could it be a body if it only had one part? So there are many parts but one body. An eye can't say to a hand, "I don't need you!" Or again, the head can't say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22The opposite is true. The parts of the body that we think are weaker are the ones we really need. The parts of the body that we think are less honorable are the ones we give special honor. So our unpresentable parts are made more presentable. However, our presentable parts don't need this kind of treatment. God has put the body together and given special honor to the part that doesn't have it. God's purpose was that the body should not be divided but rather that all of its parts should feel the same concern for each other. If one part of the body suffers, all the other parts share its suffering. If one part is praised, all the others share in its happiness.

You are Christ's body and each of you is an individual part of it.

In the church God has appointed first apostles, next prophets, third teachers, then those who perform miracles, then those who have the gift of healing, then those who help others, those who are managers, and those who can speak in a number of languages. Not all believers are apostles, are they? Are all of them prophets? Do all of them teach? Do all of them perform miracles or have gifts of healing? Can all of them speak in other languages or interpret languages? You [only] want the better gifts, but I will show you the best thing to do. 1 Corinthians 12 (GOD'S WORD® Translation)

Even To These Gifts

Who are you to judge a Servant who is not yours? For if he stands, he stands to his Master, and if he falls, he falls to his Master, for it is appointed to his Master to be able to establish him. Romans 14:4 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

The quote from Corinthians is very important ,as it shows that people are given different tasks ,and talents ,but there are those who try to suppress the gifts of others  . Is it jealousy or ignorance,  that makes them deny what they themselves do not understand ,to be allowed to those that do ?

 

[Guest Thallasa]

4 hours ago, Abby-Joy said:

Paul said "I suffer not a woman to teach or usurp authority... "  .... that is Paul stating what he did ... he did not say it was God's command, but what he/himself did.  Also, he never went and shut down the home churches that women were running.  He never even spoke against them.  What Paul was doing is setting a church in order... no one speaking out of line, disrupting, etc.  The word "usurp" means someone taking control by force.  (Look it up.)  Now... I could see if there was a God-appointed man pastoring a church, and a woman came in to take over, that would be wrong.  Btw... Paul himself attended house churches that were led and pastored by women ... either he was living a double standard, or these 2 different accounts fit together in a way that men do not like to admit.  Paul was merely setting a church in order who had a man as pastor... and the women in that particular church were being out of order and disrupting services. 

Thankyou Abby Joy . 

[Guest Thallasa]

4 hours ago, Abby-Joy said:

Not so.... God does not discriminate when it comes to gender... read the Scriptures...

Galatians 3:26-29

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This is not discrimination according to gender, as women have their own particular gifts and roles ,but there is a Structure to God's creation, and since God is masculine and iniative ,woman is normally receptive in her role ,in complementary fashion . The roles tend to mix in certain situations for example when the opposite sex is ot there .

Edited January 25, 2017 by Thallasa

[Guest Thallasa]

3 hours ago, Abby-Joy said:

Women in Church History

WOMEN PASTORS IN THE EARLY CHURCH

by Rev. Kathryn Riss

The New Testament says very little about pastors.  In fact, as a term for ministers, the word (poimen) appears only once in Ephesians 4:11.  While the word is familiar to use from modern usage, we are uncertain as to the exact role of pastors in the New Testament or how they functioned in relation to elders, bishops and other leaders.  Probably all these roles were fluid, being in the formative stages.

The meaning of the New Testament word "pastor" is "shepherd," and so we think of pastors as leaders who tend a flock.  Psalm 23 speaks of the Lord as our Shepherd, teaching, leading, guiding and providing for us.  Jesus called Himself the Good Shepherd, setting a model for all true spiritual leaders who lay down their lives for the sheep.  When Jesus called Peter the second time after His resurrection, He asked him to "feed my sheep." Thus, pastors are to nurture people and help them to grow.

While the New Testament does not tell us specifically what pastors did, we do know that both men and women provided spiritual leadership for churches which met in their homes.  In the early church, almost all Christian meetings were held in private homes.  Among these house-church pastors was Mary, the mother of John Mark, who later became a missionary with the apostles Paul and Barnabas.  It was to her house church that Peter came in Acts 12:12 after an angelic visitor set him free from prison.  The Bible says that many had assembled there and were praying, no doubt petitioning God for Peter's release.  Their prayers were answered!

Another house church leader was Chloe, according to I.  Corinthians 1:11.  In that passage, Paul relates that "some of Chloe's household " had reported that there was strife among the Corinthian Christians.  Those Chloe sent with this message to Paul were probably Christians who were members of her house church.  They may have been relatives or household servants, or they may have been Christians who lives in the area and gathered at her home for worship.  These believers would have come under Chloe's spiritual guidance, care and protection.  But Chloe's influence extended beyond her own flock.  Evidently, she had sent a deputation from her house church to Paul, who knew her or knew of her, to inform him of the need for correction in the Corinthian church.  She was a trusted leader and source of reliable information for the apostle Paul.

Acts 16:14-15, 40 tells us about Lydia, Paul's first European convert to Jesus, who offered Paul hospitality in her home.  Scripture relates that when Lydia was converted, her entire household was baptized and that her home became the first meeting place for European Christians.  Lydia was a business woman who traded in valuable, dyed garments.  The fact that Scripture mentions no husband or father indicates the high prominence of this woman.  Since first-century Greek and Roman women were almost always under the legal guardianship of a husband or father, Lydia may well have been a wealthy widow or only daughter who inherited her parents' estate.  Thus, she became the head of her own household.  She either managed the family business or developed a business of her own after her husband's or father's death.

The Book of Acts says that Lydia's entire household was baptized upon her conversion to Christ.  This follows the custom of ancient Roman families.  Under paganism, household gods were believed to protect and help the family and its enterprises.  Thus, it was the duty of members of these households, relatives, slaves, and their families to worship the gods adopted by the head of the household.

Roman households were often large since almost all businesses were home-based before the industrial age.  Those who worked for Lydia in her business, and possibly others engaging in the trade who belonged to the dye-makers guild, would have been among her converts.  By virtue of her position as head of household, Lydia had the opportunity and responsibility to lead all of its members to Christ and then to establish and lead them in the faith.  This put her in a similar position to the modern-day pastor.  To fulfill part of this responsibility, Lydia invited Paul to come and preach in her home.

Paul and Silas established their gospel mission headquarters in Lydia's house and no doubt preached there regularly.  After their release from prison, Scripture tells us that they returned to Lydia's and, having met with the brethren, exhorted them.  This may have been the first church planted on European soil, and its pastor was a woman.

Another New Testament woman who led a house church was Nympha (Col.  4:15).  Paul sent greetings to her and to the church at her house.  Some modern scholars try to get around this by saying that Nympha was "just" the hostess, not the pastor.  If that were so, who did pastor her house church, and why would Paul so rudely fail to greet the pastor as well as the hostess?

Another woman house-pastor was Prisca, or Priscilla, as Paul often affectionately calls her.  Romans 16:3-5 expresses his gratitude to her and her husband, Aquilla.  This couple had a team ministry and worked with Paul in planting the gospel in Rome, Corinth and Ephesus.  In his Roman letter, Paul sends greetings to the church that met in their house, which they pastored together.

It has often been pointed out by Greek scholars that Paul's practice of mentioning Prisca's name before that of her husband emphasizes that she was the more prominent leader.  Just as today we would address a letter "Mr. and Mrs.," so in ancient times, the husband's name was customarily given before the wife's.  Prisca must have been an outstanding Christian worker for Paul to have reversed custom by honoring her in this way.

The brief, personal letter II John is addressed to a church and its pastor, a woman with whom the apostle John evidently had warm ties.  John opens the letter, "to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth. . ." "Children" was a term of endearment that John used for Christian believers.  (I. John 2:1, 12, 18, 28).  "Truth" was a term John often used in his writings for the revelation of Jesus (See, for example, John 1:14, 17; 8:32; 16:13; I. John 1:6-8; 2:4, 21; 3:19; II. John 4; III John 3-4.) The word "elect," while it usually refers to believers as chosen by God for salvation, can also be used to refer to the ordained clergy.  The second-century church father Clement of Alexandria does this repeatedly in his Stromata book 6, chapter 13.  John's use of these terms plus the general tone of the letter with its pastoral direction as in verse 10 demonstrate that II John was written to a Christian church, not just a family.

While scholars agree that II John was addressed to a church, most balk at the idea that the "elect lady" was its pastor.  They try to get around this by spiritualizing these terms, saying that they are metaphors for the church.  This approach ignores the universal Greek practice of naming a letter's recipient(s) at the beginning.  Without an addressee or location, it cannot explain to whom or how the letter was delivered.  It also ignores the plain sense of the text.  Additionally, its logic is inconsistent because if both the "lady" and the "children" stand for the church, how could the letter be written to "the church and the church?"  If so, to which church is it written?   No one writes a letter to a symbol but to a real person or group.

Interestingly, both of the Greek words in II John 1 which are ordinarily translated into English as "elect" and "lady" were also used in the first century as women's names just as today we might name a girl "grace" or "Missy." A number of Greek manuscripts of II John 1 use initial capitals for either or both of these words, indicating personal usage. 

In the second century, Clement of Alexandria identified the "elect lady" as a specific individual.   He wrote that II John "was written to virgins.   It was written to a Babylonian lady by name Electa." (Clement of Alexandria, Fragments from Cassiodorus IV, 1-2 tr.   by William Wilson, Fathers of the Second Century, A. Cleveland Coxe, ed., New York: The Christian Literature Publishing Company, 1885, vol. 2, p. 576.) Although he does not elaborate, it appears from this statement that Clement had heard of this woman and knew that she was the spiritual leader of virgins.  Why he called her Babylonian is a mystery since Babylon had ceased to be a nation many generations earlier.  Perhaps she was of Babylonian descent or came from pagan Rome, which Christians often derisively called "Babylon." Electa may have been the leader of an order of Christian virgins, or Clement may have assumed that her followers were virgins because of the growing emphasis on asceticism in his day, a half-century after the letter was written.

During the early and medieval periods of church history, it was very common for devout women to dedicate their homes for Christian worship and to attract other similarly minded people to join them.  Usually, the converts who came under the pastoral care of such women were household members or women colleagues.  In Electa's case, if Clement is correct, they were dedicated Christian virgins who constituted one of the order of the clergy in the ancient church along with widows.

This brief letter closes by conveying a greeting from the church of another woman-"the children of your elect sister greet you." This woman was evidently their pastor since John again uses the term "children" which in his writings means Christians under the care of a spiritual leader.  Also, he calls her "elect" which either means ordained or chosen.

An interesting possibility exists that these two women pastors were natural sisters as well as sisters in the Lord and in His work.  We know from the late third and early fourth century church historian Eusebius that in his later years, the apostle Philip and two of his four daughters who were prophetesses lived at Hierapolis in Asia.  A third daughter lived in Ephesus, the city where John preached.  Unlike the other apostles who were martyred decades earlier, the apostle John lived to a very old age, possibly over 100 years.  Close ties existed between John, the church at Ephesus, and Philip and his daughters.  It is possible that after Philip's death, John wrote his second epistle to one of Philip's surviving daughters still ministering at Hierapolis (the "elect lady" or "Lady Electa") and conveyed greetings from her sister's church at Ephesus.  If so, we have in II John evidence that these daughters of Philip established and led Christian communities. 

The fourth-century church historian Eusebius quotes a letter written by Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, to Victor, bishop of Rome between 189-198 AD.  "For in Asia, also, mighty luminaries have fallen asleep, which shall rise again at the last day, at the appearance of our Lord, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall gather again all the saints.  Philip, one of the twelve apostles who sleeps in Hierapolis, and his two aged virgin daughters.  Another of his daughters, who lived in the Holy Spirit, rests at Ephesus.  Moreover, John, that rested on the bosom of our Lord, who was a priest that bore the sacerdotal plate, and martyr and teacher, he also rests at Ephesus." Quite possibly, the "elect lady" and her "elect sister" of II John are two of these "mighty luminaries" who "lived in the Holy Spirit" and whom Polycrates and Eusebius commemorated.  (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, book III, chapter. xxxi tr. by Christian Frederick Cruse, Grand Rapids, MI; Baker Book House, 1955, p. 116.)  

Do you not notice, that these are 'house' churches and houses are most often the domain of women , while the outer world is that of men .? So I would see it that there is no contradiction to women receiving people into their home and reading the bible together ,but that is not the same as going out into the world to create churches  . In many situations there would also be danger and confrontation and that is mostly mans role  .

[Running Gator]

20 hours ago, creativemechanic said:

Honestly.... Why does this happen ?

maybe for the same reason we do not enforce this in our churches...

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

 

[hmbld]

1 hour ago, Out of the Shadows said:

maybe for the same reason we do not enforce this in our churches...

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

 

Do you think there is more to this verse than meets the eye, such as what was happening at the time to require this instruction?