"All Believers Taken" In The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a False Teaching!

[Marcus O'Reillius]

7 hours ago, Keras said:

You are a false teacher, Marcus. There is no mention of heaven from Rev 6:12-17 to Rev 7:1-17.

You have no rock upon which to stand carved out by God to say by ultra-literal word testing - that the scene John presents in Revelation 7:9-17 is not the very same Temple of God in which the Father resides -IN HEAVEN- which John described in chapters 4 and 5 after being called up - is not where the Great Multitude, raised on the last day of the Church Age, gathered out of Paradise with the Last Trumpet call of Jesus (the Dead in Christ), and not reaped from the face of the earth (those who remain and are still alive) - are taken to receive their inheritance: the "barn" of Heaven.

You teach no Rapture, yet it is in the Bible.
Your pastor won't even read your writings by your own admission.
I'm sure he doesn't use your "study guides" in his church either.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Just a Mirror said:

Hey, You are right, we actually have no idea how the sun works, its all theory, so you could possibly be right, soo lets pretend we can use scientific names for such stuff.

We do know some of "how" the sun works: it is an intense electro-magnetic gravity field of plasma where hydrogen fuses upward in the elemental chain.  All elements heavier than hydrogen come from stars.  You and I are made up of the stuff of stars.  It is one of the reasons the universe is so old, and so massive. 

We also know the sun has its cycles, and that its output is variable.  Right now, it is in a lull.  This results with less energy coming to the earth, and despite growing concentrations of gases which trap heat in the atmosphere, worldwide temperatures have been "flat" for over a decade and a half.  The earth has experienced several, deep, ice ages with interglacial periods.  We are in one such interglacial period now.  Over the millions of years we can measure, the earth has been much warmer on average (74 degrees Fahrenheit/23 degrees Celsius) than it is now (59 degrees Fahrenheit/15 degrees Celsius).

4 hours ago, Just a Mirror said:

What would you call it when the sun releases massive amounts of heat and radiation on the earth?

An increase in the sun's output, which we know is variable.  It is not a supernova, nor would a coronal mass ejection (which happen all the time, one's happening right now) qualify.

That is going to happen with the fourth Bowl.

The fourth Bowl is not a Day of the Lord event like the sun/moon/star event of sixth Seal in that account, or Jesus' Harvest from the clouds in the account in which it is described.

The "fire" of the Day of the Lord is supplied by an Angel - Revelation 14:18 - who assists the Angel who helps supply the "blood" which happens on the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

That "fire" is from God - but what we can say for certain is that when the prophet says the sun will be shining brightly on a day when God heals (Isaiah 30:26) - that is not connected with either event.

IF the Bible said the sun would hurtle burning lakes of fire at the earth and burn it - then you could say that God is going to affect some explosion within the sun to propel its plasma at the earth.  Sort of like flinging mud at a golf ball a hundred yards away and spattering it with little droplets. 

The Bible doesn't say that.

However, an increase in the fusion (fire in the plasma field) will result in greater energy striking the earth 8 minutes later all over it.

The Bible does use language in Revelation 16:8-9 to that effect.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Just a Mirror said:

Wait what? I hope you are referring to the Martyrs? The Martyrs are us, we aint going anywhere til we are tested by fire, sorry man, no magic teleportation until The Day of the LORD.

When I refer to Revelation 7:9-17 - I am referring to the Great Multitude who come out of the Great Tribulation.

They come out of the Great Tribulation because that is when the Day of the Lord comes - Mt 24:29's precursor sign of the Day of the Lord from the OT happens immediately after "those days."

The Rapture is the miraculous - not magical teleportation - of those who are remain and are still alive after the Great Tribulation nearly wipes out the Elect.

Now there IS evidence of "magical teleportation" in the Bible.  Read how Philip was instantly transported across space and time after baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:39-40).

I would not call that "magical teleportation" though.  I would call that "space folding."
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Now when the Great Multitude show up in Heaven, before the Father on His Throne in His Temple; where are the Martyrs?

They are still under the Altar.

They await the completion of their number.

When is their number complete?

Rev 11:11-12  But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, Come up here. Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

This is right before the end in what I call the sidebar account of the one 'seven' in Revelation 11:1-13.

This happens at the end of the one 'seven' coincidental with the seventh Trumpet's seventh Bowl.

This is also why we don't see the First Resurrection actually declared as an accomplished fact until after the one 'seven' is over in the Epilogue account of Revelation chapters 19-22.  It is not until after Christ is victorious that the Martyrs come out from beneath the Altar - their number now complete with the addition of the Two Witnesses.
________________________________________________________________

This delineation of times and terms is part of my Pre-Wrath eschatology.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Steve_S]

12 hours ago, Keras said:

You are a false teacher, Marcus. There is no mention of heaven from Rev 6:12-17 to Rev 7:1-17. All that is prophesied there takes place on earth.  You have believed the rrrapture lie and are forced to make more lies to support it.

Prophesies like Luke 21:35 ....disaster will come upon everyone.... 1 Peter 4:12....a fiery ordeal which has [will] come to test you.... and in Revelation 6:15 the people listed includes every person alive, PROVE that there is no removal to heaven before judgement.  

Keras was banned from the thread and will be issued a warning point for the above statement.

[iamlamad]

On 1/25/2017 at 9:38 PM, Sister said:

Hi Lawlord

Thank you for sharing. 

Do you notice something here;

  Revelation 11:1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

  Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

  Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Just before the two witnesses come on to the scene, the temple of God is measured, but only those who worship at the altar.  The rest of the believers are in the court. They are not measured. Those in the court will be trodden on by the gentiles.

Daniel tells us that the saints are given into the hands of the false prophet for 3 1/2 years. 

Revelation tells us that the saints will be persecuted and beheaded for refusing the beast and the mark.

The resurrection of the saints is at the last trumpet (Christ's coming)

So what about those measured at the altar in the temple?

It must be such a small amount who are not trampled on by the gentiles.  I am not saying that they are picked up in a rapture, but they are protected from being trampled on.  They get to keep their heads in other words, and are separated from those outside in the court.  Who are they?

Hmmm. What is it that is trampled? It is the city. What city? Of course, Jerusalem. But what is the intent of these two verses? What are they telling us? Remember, the man of sin, according to Paul, will enter the temple and tell all that he is God.

Well, before he can enter the temple, he must get to Jerusalem. I think this verse is showing his arrival, 3 1/2 days before the abomination, and he arrives with his Gentile armies (dare I say Muslim armies?). It will be his armies that trample the city for 42 months.

 

Truthfully, I see nothing here that relates even remotely with the church. It will be JEWS in the temple. We don't live in Jerusalem.

You are so right: it will be a dark time for those left behind at the rapture. By the time the midpoint of the week comes, and the mark is enforced.  For those left behind (Christian in name only? Christian but no watching? Lukewarm?) the only way into heaven and to the marriage and supper will be to refuse the mark and lose your head. It will not be fun. How much better to be watching and expecting?

[iamlamad]

On 2/1/2017 at 8:50 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

When I refer to Revelation 7:9-17 - I am referring to the Great Multitude who come out of the Great Tribulation.

They come out of the Great Tribulation because that is when the Day of the Lord comes - Mt 24:29's precursor sign of the Day of the Lord from the OT happens immediately after "those days."

The Rapture is the miraculous - not magical teleportation - of those who are remain and are still alive after the Great Tribulation nearly wipes out the Elect.

Now there IS evidence of "magical teleportation" in the Bible.  Read how Philip was instantly transported across space and time after baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:39-40).

I would not call that "magical teleportation" though.  I would call that "space folding."
______________________________________________________________

Now when the Great Multitude show up in Heaven, before the Father on His Throne in His Temple; where are the Martyrs?

They are still under the Altar.

They await the completion of their number.

When is their number complete?

Rev 11:11-12  But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, Come up here. Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

This is right before the end in what I call the sidebar account of the one 'seven' in Revelation 11:1-13.

This happens at the end of the one 'seven' coincidental with the seventh Trumpet's seventh Bowl.

This is also why we don't see the First Resurrection actually declared as an accomplished fact until after the one 'seven' is over in the Epilogue account of Revelation chapters 19-22.  It is not until after Christ is victorious that the Martyrs come out from beneath the Altar - their number now complete with the addition of the Two Witnesses.
________________________________________________________________

This delineation of times and terms is part of my Pre-Wrath eschatology.

I think you miss it. The great crowd is the just raptured church. They are raptured between the 5th and 6th seal, and moments before the great earthquake of the 6th seal.  They did not come out of the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of, for they do not even begin in Revelation until after chapter 14. In chapter 7, John has not yet even started the 70th week!

So what did John mean? Only that at the time of the rapture, people will be dying for their testimony. It is that way today! No one can be killed twice: for those killed, "tribulation" certainly could not be any greater.

 

Sorry, the martyrs must wait for the church age to end and judgment to begin. That happens at the rapture of the church: the rapture ENDS the church age, and ushers in the Day of the Lord.

As for the "first" or chief or primary resurrection, all believers take part in it: and Jesus was the very first. Then later, the church will be the second group, then finally at the 7th vial, the Old Testament saints rise. But all are a part of the chief resurrection.

As y0u can see, I disagree with much of what you wrote.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

21 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

As y0u can see, I disagree with much of what you wrote.

None of us agree with each other; there are as many takes on what is going to happen as there are people who have opinions about it.

[Just a Mirror]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I think you miss it. The great crowd is the just raptured church. They are raptured between the 5th and 6th seal, and moments before the great earthquake of the 6th seal.  They did not come out of the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of, for they do not even begin in Revelation until after chapter 14. In chapter 7, John has not yet even started the 70th week!

So what did John mean? Only that at the time of the rapture, people will be dying for their testimony. It is that way today! No one can be killed twice: for those killed, "tribulation" certainly could not be any greater.

 

Sorry, the martyrs must wait for the church age to end and judgment to begin. That happens at the rapture of the church: the rapture ENDS the church age, and ushers in the Day of the Lord.

As for the "first" or chief or primary resurrection, all believers take part in it: and Jesus was the very first. Then later, the church will be the second group, then finally at the 7th vial, the Old Testament saints rise. But all are a part of the chief resurrection.

As y0u can see, I disagree with much of what you wrote.

It really makes me scratch my head trying to imagine how people get this interpretation of scripture. This pre-beast persecution rapture nonsense.

The bible LITERALLY spells out when the believers are removed, The Same Day God's WRATH (GODS WRATH, NOT THE BEASTS PERSECUTION)

Did anyone in the old testament that lived between Adam and Noah get raptured? Do you remember how bad it got, He destroyed the world?

Did Noah get raptured? No. Saved.

Did Daniel get raptured? No. Protected.

Did Peter get raptured? No. Martyred.

Every Believer since Jesus who has faced persecution DIED, Martyred, or ran away.

We are martyrs for Christ, just as Christ was martyred for us. Its the way it is.

I can hear it now, "But the bible says we are not appointed for GODS WRATH!!!"

Okay, what is YOUR current definition of Gods wrath?

What day is the day of the Lord? Is that not the beginning of Gods wrath?

Or maybe you believe that God sent the Devil to punish us for 6000 years?

Cause that would be the only way that a person could believe that the beast, false prophet and dragon are God's wrath.

Let me explain in math, everyone loves math.

Beast + False Prophet + Dragon + Whore = Lucifer's final war on the Church, Making Martyrs.

Beast + False Prophet + Dragon + 10 Kings = Lucifer destroying Whore and "his" final war with God in this age.

Yeshua + Martyrs + 144,000 + Rapture = God's Wrath on Lucifer. Thats the wrath we are saved from, not the beast persecution.

Okay, forgot one angle people bring up.

"The man of lawlessness cannot be revealed until the one who restrains is taken out of the way."

Drum roll please..........The one who restrains is............Michael!!!!

Yes, "and at that time Michael will stand up and there will be a time of trouble unlike any there has ever been.."

Not hard to put together.

Peace.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Just a Mirror
things and more things.

[Sister]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Hmmm. What is it that is trampled? It is the city. What city? Of course, Jerusalem. But what is the intent of these two verses? What are they telling us? Remember, the man of sin, according to Paul, will enter the temple and tell all that he is God.

Hello iamlamad.

There are two prophesies here.

Revelation 11:1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

  Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Verse 1 is speaking about worshipers of God in general.  Those who worship God in spirit and in truth are individuals who are spread across the whole earth.  They exist in the last days and God has them numbered, (they are the minority of the saints).  At the altar is where the sacrifices are made symbolically, and these at the temple (very close to God)  have not made animal sacrifices, but sacrifices of the heart       (1 Peter 2:5).  They have repented sincerely and completely, and their sacrifices are accepted. (rev 3:10), (2 timothy 2:20-21)

Now in V2, still speaking about the worshipers, those not in the temple at the altar, are found to be "in the court".  They have not made sacrifices of the heart.  Their worship is tainted, ...they are not covered in righteousness so to speak,..still wearing dirty robes.  These are the luke-warmers, they still have sin attached to their garments (Rev 3:16-19),  These Christ will put through the fire to purge them which is "great tribulation" (Rev 2:22 & 23). 

This means they have one last chance to be purified, and that will be a severe test to see if they are going to accept or refuse the mark of the beast.  If they refuse, then all those dirty stains will be cleaned, as to die for the Lord is the greatest sacrifice one can make. 

Now the holy City is Jerusalem.  The King of the North and his armies (the 10 kings), are not Muslem nations, but European.  These will attack Jerusalem and this is how the 3 1/2 yr tribulation will start off (Jer 25:29, Jer 1:14, 4:16, 6:22, 10:22, 13:20, 46:20, 24, 50:3, 9, 41, 48). 

Israel will be occupied, and the False Prophet gets his entrance into Israel.  He will not treat them kind, but will be fierce and oppressive, just like it was in Egypt.  He will make them build his temple, not for their true Messiah, but for him.  They will have the two witnesses there in Jerusalem revealing the False Prophet, and this beast system.  They will get a good telling off, but get to hear truth (Rev 11:3) Israel will learn that they have been duped, and double crossed, but not all, only the remnants chosen will heed.  Then at the end of the tribulation, the Medes (King of the East and his allies), the muslem nations will come in to Israel to war the King of the North (The False prophet and the beast).  This war is cut short, and then Armageddon.

 

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Well, before he can enter the temple, he must get to Jerusalem. I think this verse is showing his arrival, 3 1/2 days before the abomination, and he arrives with his Gentile armies (dare I say Muslim armies?). It will be his armies that trample the city for 42 months

The abomination of desolation is when the false prophet has achieved everything he set out to do.  He persecuted all the saints, conquered lands, then kills the two witnesses at the end of their 1260 day ministry, .... then he sits in the temple and declares himself God.  His end is very close now, because even though he sits there proudly, his end comes quickly, and that's when the Medes stand up to him and invade Israel to war (Jer 51:11,  & Isaiah whole chapter 13, Rev 16:12 also called the Kings of the East, these are the Medes)  That war will not last long. 45 days later, the Lord will come (Dan 12:11-12)

 

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Truthfully, I see nothing here that relates even remotely with the church. It will be JEWS in the temple. We don't live in Jerusalem.

The temple that God is talking about is not the temple made with man's hands,...the false prophets temple,  but that spiritual temple we are all required to serve at...Christ (John 2:19) .  This same temple should be in our hearts where Christ will dwell if it is kept clean.  If he is in our heart and put there first, then we are serving at the altar.  You cannot get any closer than that of the heart.

Please ask if you need any more scriptures to verify anything.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, Just a Mirror said:

Did Noah get raptured? No. Saved.

Did Noah get "saved" in the midst of disaster as in getting a life preserver thrown to him?
- or had God made provisions well ahead of time so that Noah would be able to escape His Wrath?

The latter.  God had Noah build the Ark years before the first raindrop ever fell to earth.

And for what you would say of Noah from the Olivet Discourse, also has to fit Lot because of both of them are mentioned in Luke:

Luke 17:26-30 “And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed."

In both cases, God's Wrath "rained down" on the wicked.
In both cases, God had made provisions to rescue them before His Wrath fell.

They were both removed from the deadly situation by God's Hand.
However you want to state a rule for what happened to Noah also has to fit Lot.

And it will be just the same on the Day that the Son of Man is revealed and gathers us up in the Rapture.