To remember the dead

[Guest Teditis]

7 minutes ago, BacKaran said:

Ted Ted teditis...

I don't have a hate of people just the devil and RCC system itself leading them all to death, as I do for Islam, Mormons, Wicca and other cults and I used it so newbies who are unaware may question the RCC or me.

And a righteous anger, a righteous hated of sin and evil is from God, many can't see that because they have no discernment.

I know where you stand and you know where I stand and I love all sinners because I was one of them. I believe God wants people to hear His Truth and if they start asking questions, that's a good place to start plus the Bible.

I'm not trying to prove anything for me but I will give people God's truth and to have them start questioning what they think is "good" when compared to His Truth.

Gods truth offends alot of people.

It is NOT a righteous anger if these people honor God for who He is and Jesus for what He has done for us.

It's dishonorable to Christ Himself.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Teditis

[Guest BacKaran]

That's just it, most rccers don't know what they are in so praying to dead people is "normal" in the RCC but it's not honoring God at all.

OK, we agree to disagree but I will keep defending His word as long as the RCC keeps defending it's cult like system with lies, again, as I would do for Islam, Wicca, Mormons etc...

Edited January 27, 2017 by BacKaran

[Guest BacKaran]

The point would be that it's growth for the pray-er.  

human growth, not godly growth as In Christ did it once for all... The RCC is still adding to God's redemption.

OK, we beat this horse dead, have a good night. ?

[markdohle]

31 minutes ago, White Rabbitt said:

Good point.

What could the will of God be for dead people that would want us to pray for them?

 

We are all in the body of Christ, death does not change that.  How does God deal with our souls if we love something so much that it impedes God's grace.....he heals with his love.  I believe St. Paul talks about that when he states that we will be tested by fire (God's Love), what is stubble will be burned away until all that impedes us having a full relationship with the Trinity is taken away.   So, yes there is something in scripture that points to that reality.  It is all grace.

Peace
mark

[Guest Teditis]

5 minutes ago, BacKaran said:

That's just it, most rccers don't know what they are in so praying to dead people is "normal" in the RCC but it's not honoring God at all.

OK, we agree to disagree but I will keep defending His word as long as the RCC keeps defending it's cult like system with lies, again, as I would do for Islam, Wicca, Mormons etc...

That you're placing yourself in a position of superiority to RCC'ers!

Most don't follow the Holy See on their dogma... that key. Many Catholic parishes disagree with Vatican pontifications.

And they follow the basic tenants of Christian doctrine and dogma. They are good people who believe in Jesus' work.

So this is where you are wrong on your own dogmatic view of the RCC... the masses follow Christ alone. And further more

you cause dissention among the saints with your dogmatic views. Catholics are Christians by simple definition of the term.

They believe the Gospel and adhere to it.

9 minutes ago, BacKaran said:

The point would be that it's growth for the pray-er.  

human growth, not godly growth as In Christ did it once for all... The RCC is still adding to God's redemption.

OK, we beat this horse dead, have a good night. ?

Human growth in the Christian world, is Spiritual growth.

And though our brothers and sisters add to Redemption doesn't take away from the fact that they understand

the core basics, emphatically.

Listen, you've been hurt through your experiences with the RCC, that shouldn't mean that all feel or experienced the

same thing that you did.

Catholics are Christians, just like you and me.

[White Rabbitt]

Mark, these verses you use here do not support your point.

You speak softly and you make it sound lovely.

But the verses you are referring to are 1 Corinthians 3:10-15;

It is being spoken to a very living church and it speaks of warnings, enduring things, the Day of the Lord, spiritual works being tested, fire, life tested, spiritual loss, and spiritual failure.

Nothing here refers to the dead, only the living.

If you believe what you say and you believe it is backed up in Scripture, then you will have to look elsewhere.

[markdohle]

13 hours ago, White Rabbitt said:

Mark, these verses you use here do not support your point.

You speak softly and you make it sound lovely.

But the verses you are referring to are 1 Corinthians 3:10-15;

It is being spoken to a very living church and it speaks of warnings, enduring things, the Day of the Lord, spiritual works being tested, fire, life tested, spiritual loss, and spiritual failure.

Nothing here refers to the dead, only the living.

If you believe what you say and you believe it is backed up in Scripture, then you will have to look elsewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Church is made up of individuals, so it does apply.   Our sufferings bring us to a place of healing and choice, whether it is for our faith or in other areas of our lives.  One aspect of this life is purgation, growth, letting go of all that keeps us from becoming ever more human just as Christ Jesus was.  In any case, this will be my last piece about my journey as a catholic monk, and will just stick with the post…..don’t want to be a source of aggravation to people here, good people, loving people, Christ filled people.  I have come to the understanding that it also not fair for me to post some of the articles I have posted here.  This is not a catholic site and perhaps I have not respected that enough....so my apologies for that.  Below is my last thoughts on this subject, unless I bring it up in some other thread.

Fundamentalism seems to go on the assumption that if it is not in the New Testament, then it has to be rejected.  However, the NT Canon was not put together until the 4^th century.  A long time indeed so there was further development in Christian thought during that time.  Even in the very early days of the church the Epistles deal with the problems that needed to be dealt with, some of them doctrinal.  Yet apart from Paul’s mention of the Eucharist in the book of 1^st Corinthians, it was not mentioned much in the NT, because it was not a problem.  Does that mean that that the Eucharist was not important?  Of course not, it was the central worship in the time of St. Paul.   There are other writings that dealt with that, which did not make it into the canon since it was not deemed necessary. 

The same goes for purgatory, or there being a state after this life is ended, where the grace and healing of the Holy Spirit continues.  In the first book of Maccabeus, it mentions prayers for the dead.  In the early Church, this book was considered inspired, it was only when Luther decided to cut some books from the OT that the books omitted were called the Apocrypha was created.  So the early Christians, mostly Jewish were not unacquainted with the concept of praying for the dead.   However, to be fair to Luther, he went with the Hebrew-speaking Jews understanding of the Canon.  Yet that does not take away from the fact that until the reformation, the books of Maccabeus were in the canon and praying for the dead is part of one of those books.

My use of St. Paul’s analogy is still a good way to show the process of how God slowly ‘burns’ away through the fire of infinite love all that keeps the soul from true union.  Now I know that many non-Catholics believe that salvation is nothing like that.   The soul is covered with Christ, like snow covers a pile of dung, or a manure heap, an analogy from Martin Luther.  Which is not scriptural, any more than ‘once saved always saved is’, or even the ‘Trinity’ which was a later development in the Church’s understanding of Jesus relationship with the Father.  What did the first born mean?  Today we read into many of St. Paul’s teaching on Christ, but actually, it took many years for the Trinity to become the central doctrine of the Church.  Aryanism, now consider heterodox, was in the early church one theory considered and argued over.  In fact, this understanding of Christ almost won.  

Our understanding continues to develop and I believe the weakness of fundamentalism is that it has become an ideology, a system so closed that it will day simply shatter.  What many consider ‘true Christianity’ actually come into existence in the 19^th century.    Christ Jesus is the ‘Word”, the creator of the universe, and in him, we live and move and have our being.  I believe that opening of the Gospel of John states that clearly.  So this is a mystery that the church contemplates and will continue to so until the end of time whenever that will be.  Tomorrow or ten thousand years from now…..every generation beginning with Paul thought the Lords coming is near….indeed it is….yet in God’s timing, not ours.  We are still a young faith I believe, we have yet to attain the maturity that Christ Jesus is calling us to, which is to be truly childlike.

The condescending attitude towards other religions and the treating God like he is some kind of real estate that can be owned and then used to damn just about everyone else, I believe is not what Christ had intended.  Also, the “I am infallible’ in my take on the scriptures and everyone else wrong is also somewhat childish I believe.   Rigidity is not a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Christ is Lord; His Holy Spirit continues to deepen our understanding of his saving intent for mankind.  To think that we have a complete understanding of that reality only makes us Idol Worshippers.  We use Scriptures to mold God into our own image and likeness one scripture quote at a time.  God has no image, Christ is God’s human face, but the mystery still remains. 

Even though we argue amongst ourselves, I believe that it is Christ Jesus who holds us together.  I love everyone here and respect them, even those who believe I belong to a cult.  I don't belong to a cult, for the Catholic Church is the mother of all other denomination and the use of the New Testament which was put together by the RCC in ways that was not intended, is a tragedy and only continues to break down the church further and further.  I guess the final fruit of that is ‘WestboroBaptistChurch’.  It will continue and is perhaps one of the greatest scandals to the world.....how we love to fight and damn each other to a fate of infinite pain and suffering, all the while saying how much we love sinners......it would be better to be honest about it and not be so overly pious. 

 

Edited January 28, 2017 by markdohle

[Neighbor]

 Somehow double posted- sorry

Edited January 28, 2017 by Neighbor

[Neighbor]

11 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Prayer at a place of green serenity, praying to God  a prayer of thanks in remembrance of the now dead in the flesh that have touched one's life and filled some place in a life of many experiences together seems not a bad thing to me.

It was Glackstone?- that said; show me the manner in which a nation cares for it's dead and I will show you with mathematical certainty the measure of it's tender mercies. (Paraphrasing) I think it pretty nice that someone cares to remember those that God has had pass through a time period of commonality on the pathway to eternal life.

I looked it back up:

“Show me the manner in which a nation cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their respect for the laws of the land and their loyalty to high ideals.”
– Sir William Gladstone 

To pray that each that have shared a little time on the path together with us, and are remembered and also secure, is  a prayer to God a praise for his faithfulness, not a prayer  for them to become saved. Waste of time to remember the dead? I don't think so. To forget the dead is to deny God his having put them in our pathway for His good purposes. To not honor their memory, nor ever grieve their loss to us, is to suffer a corse callousness of heart.  Today's world celebrates life, never grieves death, a double loss when one passes on from fleshly body to eternal life forward. All happy talk and no sorrow,  nor remembrance with some little sense of melancholy even, dimmishes the high value of God's gift to each of us of our friends, our family, and lessens the appreciation of the value in eternal life with Him.

 I think I will rather have known even just one person that risks a prayer in remembrance of me after I have graduated, than to have known a hundred that  are all happy talk only after I am gone and forgetful of God having shared  a set time for us to be together.

 

Edited January 28, 2017 by Neighbor

[markdohle]

19 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Prayer at a place of green serenity, praying to God  a prayer of thanks in remembrance of the now dead in the flesh that have touched one's life and filled some place in a life of many experiences together seems not a bad thing to me.

It was Glackstone?- that said; show me the manner in which a nation cares for it's dead and I will show you with mathematical certainty the measure of it's tender mercies. (Paraphrasing) I think it pretty nice that someone cares to remember those that God has had pass through a time period of commonality on the pathway to eternal life. I looked it back up:

“Show me the manner in which a nation cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their respect for the laws of the land and their loyalty to high ideals.”
– Sir William Gladstone 

To pray that each that have shared a little time on the path together with us, and are remembered and also secure, is  a prayer to God a praise for his faithfulness, not a prayer  for them to become saved. Waste of time to remember the dead? I don't think so. To forget the dead is to deny God his having put them in our pathway for His good purposes. To not honor their memory, nor ever grieve their loss to us, is to suffer a corse callousness of heart.  Today's world celebrates life, never grieves death, a double loss when one passes on from fleshly body to eternal life forward. All happy talk and no sorrow,  nor remembrance with some little sense of melancholy even, dimmishes the high value of God's gift to each of us of our friends, our family, and lessens the appreciation of the value in eternal life with Him.

 I much rather know a person that risks a prayer in remembrance of me after I have graduated, than to have known a hundred that  are all happy talk only after I am gone and forgetful of God having shared  a set time for us to be together.

 

This is very beautiful thank you.  Yes, those who are being healed by the Lord are truly saved.  It does keep me in touch with those who passed on.  For me, prayer is also out of space and time, and being part of a priestly people I believe that prayer unites us to all of man-kind, for Christ will leave the 99 for the one lost.  Again thank you.

Peace
Mark