Historic or Contemporary.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎10‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 2:25 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi missmuffet,

Do you realise that you are teaching, using other people`s material. This, as we well know is not allowed on Worthy.

regards, Marilyn.

Hi missmuffet,

This is what I first posted regarding your presentation, which I believe is teaching. You use other people`s material, however it is still presented as `teaching.`

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

38 minutes ago, Yowm said:

The 10 horns are part of the fourth beast, out of which the three horns and the little horn come forth as well. There is a gap near the end of verse 7 to coincide with the present church age. When the Church is raptured the doors are opened for the 10 horns etc.

Hi Yowm,

I`m off to bed now as I`m tired but will answer you tomorrow. Good discussion, bro.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, Yowm said:

The 10 horns are part of the fourth beast, out of which the three horns and the little horn come forth as well. There is a gap near the end of verse 7 to coincide with the present church age. When the Church is raptured the doors are opened for the 10 horns etc.

Hi Yowm,

I agree with some of what you say however I think we need a closer look at God`s judgments upon the Gentile World Rulers.

In Daniel 2 we see the first 4 World Rulers. These have all come & gone as God has judged their governments.

Babylon - `God has numbered your kingdom & finished it.` (Dan. 5: 26) God judged the Babylonian government & the Medes & Persians took over ruling.

Medes & Persians - After a while that government was found wanting & God judged it as well. The Greeks then took over ruling.

Greeks - This government also was judged by God & the Romans then came to rule.

Romans - This government ruled for many centuries, till finally God also judged it & it fell apart. There was no World Ruler after the Romans.

Thus we see that these historic World governments have all come & gone, for God has judged them. 

 

Now looking at the 4 beastly Federations of Dan. 7 we see that all of them will be judged in the future.

`I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words, which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, & its body destroyed 7 given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season & a time.` (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

Interesting, ay. Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

12 minutes ago, Yowm said:

The reason I connect the ten horns with the fourth beast (Rome) is because the fourth beast is depicted as one of iron where the ten horns/ten toes is partly of iron and partly clay Dan 2:33. This appears to be the last beast kingdom before Messiah smashes the image Dan 2:34.

Hi Yowm,

Yes I agree that the 10 horns of the 4th beast coincides with the 10 toes of the great image. However I do not agree that it is Rome, as God has already judged that system of government. It is in the past, gone.

And it is the Lord who `smashes` the `times of the gentiles ruling the world.`

`And in the days of these kings, (10) the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; & the kingdom shall not be left to other people; IT SHALL BREAK IN PIECES & consume all these kingdoms, & it shall stand for ever.` (Dan. 2: 44)

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

34 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Marilyn, I'm not saying it is Rome but it seems connected to Rome by the similarity between the legs of iron (Rome) and the ten toes (iron and clay).

Hi Yowm,

People have assumed that however.......

`the fourth kingdom shall be AS STRONG as iron.` (Dan. 2: 40)

`And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron & partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be PARTLY STRONG  & partly fragile.`  (Dan. 2: 42)

So we can see that God is describing the strength of the different kingdoms, likening its strength to iron. He is not naming the kingdom but describing its power. People have tried to build a doctrine on that symbol - iron- but we cannot build doctrine on symbols. History has clearly shown that God has judged the 4 World Rulers, their governments & He will do the same for the last Gentile World Ruler.

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

40 minutes ago, Yowm said:

They are separate in the sense of the gap of the 69th an 70th week, but similar in composition in that they  both have iron.

Hi Yowm,

Yes the two kingdoms are separate by over 1500 years. There hasn`t been a World Ruler since the Roman times. As I said God judged them as he did all the others previously. The 4 beast Federations are contemporary to the time of the Lord returning & then He will judge those Gentile government systems.

The Roman system of Government was `very strong,` thus described `as strong as iron,` while the last Power that controls the World`s system of government will be `partially strong & partially weak.` Do you have any thoughts on who that is & do you see it emerging?

regards, Marilyn. 

 

[Marilyn C]

9 minutes ago, Yowm said:

We see two unmixable cultures going on in Europe today, so???  hmm?? I dunno

As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,
(Dan 2:43-44)

I do believe we are nearly there, though the ten 'kings' will appear during the trib or just before it and will whittle to three and finally one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no expert on this stuff, just throwing out my best hunches based upon the little prophecy knowledge I have.

Hi Yowm,

So do you see Europe as - `dreadful & terrible, exceedingly strong....It was  different from all the other beasts...` (Dan. 7: 7)

Do you see Europe as different from the other western countries? Is it exceedingly strong? Is it dreadful & terrible?

What say you?

(BTW I looked at your profile & I see we are about the same age. So probably have seen a lot of church & world happenings in our life time.)

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

27 minutes ago, Yowm said:

No, I saw Rome at the time as exceedingly strong but in the future the ten horns/toes as..

And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.
(Dan 2:41-43)

 

Hi Yowm,

Yes Rome was exceedingly strong but remember God judged its government & it is no more. The 4th beast cannot be Rome for it is yet to be judged.

16 minutes ago, Yowm said:

What do you think of this statement by A.C. Gaebelein?

"The fourth Empire, the Roman, has not yet fulfilled its history. The final form, and with it the final form of the times of the Gentiles is yet to pass into history. This final form is symbolically seen in the ten toes and the clay, in the feet of the image. The territory which constituted the now extinct Roman empire will in the near future undergo a political revival. It will reappear in a confederated Europe, except certain countries which never belonged to the Roman empire. In that confederacy will be kingdoms to the number of ten; the clay represents democracies, the rule by the people and for the people. The late great war has brought such a political combination into our times. Such is the future and end of the times of the Gentiles, as foretold in the feet of the image."

The same mistake is made here. `The 4th empire has not yet fulfilled its history...` This is not in accordance with God judging Rome as He did all the one previous. Its government has gone. God is not judging territories or people, (that is at the great white throne), but system of governments. Rome`s Caesar & his Senate etc have been found wanting & judged by God & are no more.

Now as you said concerning the cultures of Europe - two unmixable cultures - Islam & European. I would suggest to you that the Islamic culture is also a system of government that in time will `tread down` the other culture. And then looking specifically at that Islamic system of government, I believe it is beastly, dreadful & terrible & different from all the others.  Islam is also inherently divided - Sunni & Shiites.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

40 minutes ago, Yowm said:

If you are heading towards an Islamic antichrist, I can't buy it because...

And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. (Dan 9:26)

It was the Roman people and the prince (antichrist) who should come will be Roman as well.

Then what Muslim will exalt themselves above another god but allah?

"And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.
(Dan 11:36)

Forgive me if I am jumping to conclusions.

 

Hi Yowm,

That`s fine, we are both just sharing how we see it, then of course it will soon show one way or the other.

I don`t see how you can say - `It was the Roman people and the prince (antichrist) who should come will be Roman as well.` There is no roman system of government, God judged it, finished. No one is `Roman.` And actually God`s word says -

 

His nationality – Assyrian.  (Isa. 31: 8     Micah 5: 5)

The region he comes from – the Ancient Assyrian Empire. (Dan. 11: 35 – 43)

Leader of Ancient Assyrian region -  Iraq, Syria & Jordan. (Dan. 7: 8)

Leader of Islamic Federation – 10 kings of Islam. (Dan. 7: 8,   Rev. 17: 12)

He rules the world – (Rev. 16: 13 & 14,     19: 19)

 

He will get rid of all religions, Islamic included. (Rev. 17: 16) He is controlled by Satan & only recognises him. (Rev. 13: 4)

 

Quite a bit of detail there ay bro. Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Yowm said:

I see it as a humanistic system (666) you see it coming from an ex Islamic system/area. I've heard of that theory as well. All interesting.

Hi Yowm,

I also see the coming, now forming Global Government as a humanistic system. So we agree there. Then there is the final power that takes over all the other Federations of the world. And that power I believe is Islam which is also looking for a coming Messiah. This person will be Satanically controlled. So it`s all leading to the worship of Satan which we would both agree upon. It is only the pieces of the puzzle that we may differ on.

Blessings, Marilyn.