Left Attacks Melania for Quoting the Lord's Prayer

[hmbld]

21 hours ago, CCole1983 said:

It isn't her. I have said very little about her. I have a problem with people in general, from the right or left, liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican, or Libertarian, or New Yorker, or North Dakotan or whatever they may be using faith at partisan political rallies. It's a bad look. Faith becomes a means to an end

I will admit I have judged when it appears someone wants to look religious as a ploy.  I doubt either of the Trumps would think a prayer would be viewed positively in the current climate we have in the U.S.  

I choose to hope that God is working in both Trump's hearts, and it is a sincere desire to have God's hand in their lives.  

I am also full of joy that the leader of the country shows respect to the one true God.  

I pray both the Trumps accept the gift of life from the finished work on the cross, if they have not already, and that their lives will bring glory to God.  

And may I have hope in God, that I will ever remember no one is too far, nor is God's arm too short, nor shall we hide our faith,

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Davida said:

I can see the left , pagans , secularists , anti - Christian criticizing her for leading the Lord's Prayer, because they are a part of the fallen world & in truth they are enemies of Christ,  but it so very sad to hear professing Christians join in the attacks, it is not righteous or noble.

I didn't attack her. I don't agree with using the Lord's Prayer (or any other scripture) at partisan political rallies, regardless of who it is.

Why is this so hard for so many to understand?

[Churchmouse]

49 minutes ago, CCole1983 said:

And if showing up and reciting a model prayer at a partisan political rally was the only means by which our light could shine, I'd agree with you. As it is not, I don't.

How many times have people through the year called upon the name of the lord to back their side in war, in peace, in just about every fascet of life imaginable. If we don't know for sure that this women doesn't do it when she feels like it in other things in her life, how can we propose ill will on anyone by doing it now. That tends to make me look at the person doing the judgment and ask that prson if he has entreated the lord for his answers to this situation or has simply reacted on a whim.

What is really striking is the hypocrisy of attaching ill will to someone for assuming they are doing the same by attaching The Lords prayer to an event .

Edited February 22, 2017 by Churchmouse

[MorningGlory]

4 hours ago, Davida said:

I can see the left , pagans , secularists , anti - Christian criticizing her for leading the Lord's Prayer, because they are a part of the fallen world & in truth they are enemies of Christ,  but it so very sad to hear professing Christians join in the attacks, it is not righteous or noble but political & looks hypocritical. We should be elated that it took place & I will join with those that saw it that way.

I agree, Davida, and I think prayer is appropriate anywhere and everywhere.  I don't get the sniping at someone who says the Lord's Prayer in public.  It's sad.

[MorningGlory]

4 hours ago, CCole1983 said:

I didn't attack her. I don't agree with using the Lord's Prayer (or any other scripture) at partisan political rallies, regardless of who it is.

Why is this so hard for so many to understand?

For me, it's not hard to understand.  It's hard to accept.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, MorningGlory said:

For me, it's not hard to understand.  It's hard to accept.

If a Democrat recites "The Lord's Prayer" at a DNC rally, what would your reaction be? "Ohhh, that's terrible! Don't they realize the Democrats stand against God on every issue? They're doing nothing but pandering! They're giving the appearance of righteousness!"

So what makes it okay if a Republican at an RNC rally does the same thing? Is the Republican party so holy and righteous that it has Jesus' seal of approval? Does He endorse all they desire? Last time I checked, Jesus told Pilate that His kingdom was not of this world. and if God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, then I'm not convinced that the Republicans are more in with Him than the Democrats are. I will say the Republicans pay Him more lip service than the Democrats tend to, but that's only because Evangelicals are largely a voting bloc that only matters when elections are taking place.

Yet it's prayers and scripture at partisan rallies that reinforce this perception that the gospel and the GOP are one and the same, and in a fallen world perception is reality.

So saying a prayer at a partisan rally reveals nothing about the faith of the one saying it, because IT COULD BE just a quick way to score some quick Evangelical cred, and because President Trump is in for a massive fight for this term in office he's going to need all the early and consistent support he can get. But it further entrenches the idea that Christianity and the Republican party are one and the same. They're not. They never have been, despite what Jerry Falwell and Jerry Jr, Pat Robertson, Franklin Graham, James Dobson, Robert Jeffress, and Wayne Grudem say.

[SavedByGrace1981]

“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”  St. Augustine.

 

I posted this quote in a different thread in response to a different topic.  Perhaps it is appropriate here.

Blessings,

-Ed

[Guest shiloh357]

On 2/22/2017 at 10:58 PM, CCole1983 said:

If a Democrat recites "The Lord's Prayer" at a DNC rally, what would your reaction be? "Ohhh, that's terrible! Don't they realize the Democrats stand against God on every issue? They're doing nothing but pandering! They're giving the appearance of righteousness!"

Actually, no.   I would see it as a ray of hope for the Democrat Party that maybe they are returning to their sense.   But here you go making assumptions about people you don't know, while demanding no one do that to you.
 

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So what makes it okay if a Republican at an RNC rally does the same thing?

The first Amendment of the US Constitution.

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Is the Republican party so holy and righteous that it has Jesus' seal of approval? Does He endorse all they desire? Last time I checked, Jesus told Pilate that His kingdom was not of this world.

So why do you assume that when Republicans recite Scripture or quote a biblical prayer in public it's because we think that the Republican party is the party of Jesus?   Why do you keep making these unfounded assumptions about people you don't know?

 

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and if God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, then I'm not convinced that the Republicans are more in with Him than the Democrats are. I will say the Republicans pay Him more lip service than the Democrats tend to, but that's only because Evangelicals are largely a voting bloc that only matters when elections are taking place.

So if a Republican prays in public at a political event, it's because they think they are more in tune with God?   I am rather confounded that a Christian could be so hostile to having God acknowledged at a political event.   Seems like any recognition of God at such an event in  either party would be welcomed given how unChristian the world of politics are.

 

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Yet it's prayers and scripture at partisan rallies that reinforce this perception that the gospel and the GOP are one and the same, and in a fallen world perception is reality.

So when Melania quoted the Lord's prayer and everyone at the rally approved and even cheered, it was because every single person at the rally was a Christian/evaneglical?    No, I can imagine that among the 9,000 people in attendance there were Atheists, and Jews, and Agnostics and who knows what else, right?   The Atheists didn't launch a massive nationwide campaign to slam Melania.  The media didn't like it, but we didn't see any kind of nationwide backlash come out of that even from the people who attended.  She didn't get booed off the stage.  No one threw anything at her.  

So the only person offended by this is a Christian who thinks that quoting the Bible at a political rally is some kind of offense to God or something. I find that quite ironic. 

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So saying a prayer at a partisan rally reveals nothing about the faith of the one saying it, because IT COULD BE just a quick way to score some quick Evangelical cred, and because President Trump is in for a massive fight for this term in office he's going to need all the early and consistent support he can get.

You have no reason to suggest that possibility.  No one else saw it that way.  The people in attendance didn't see it that way, evidently. Melania is a Christian and wanted to quote from the Lord's prayer.  She didn't put on airs, and didn't talk about it.   In fact, if it weren't for the ant-Trump crowd making a big stink about it, we wouldn't be talking about it now.

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But it further entrenches the idea that Christianity and the Republican party are one and the same.

That is a common liberal talking point, but it has no basis in fact.  I have never thought that way, and I don't know any other Christian conservative who thinks that way.   That is a false value that you assign to us and is not based in fact.  It is just  a rather warped perception, not reality.

 

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They're not. They never have been, despite what Jerry Falwell and Jerry Jr, Pat Robertson, Franklin Graham, James Dobson, Robert Jeffress, and Wayne Grudem say.

When did they say that Christianity and the Republican party are one and the same?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

That is a common liberal talking point, but it has no basis in fact.  I have never thought that way, and I don't know any other Christian conservative who thinks that way.   That is a false value that you assign to us and is not based in fact.  It is just  a rather warped perception, not reality.

And people in the mob think they're legitimate businessmen doing legitimate business.

How many people outside of Christian evangelical conservative circles do you actually talk with and listen to? Do you engage in discussion (not debate) with people who live outside your echo chamber?

I talk with people all across the spectrum of views and beliefs. At one time I would have referred to myself as being a very conservative Republican, and I couldn't imagine how anyone who called themselves a Christian could ever vote for anyone outside the Republican party. It was because I was raised on Focus on the Family publications, and attended a fundamental independent regular Baptist school from fifth through 12 grade, and read publications from "The John Birch Society" and watched videos by David Barton's "Wall Builders".

That was until some very good friends of mine actually got me to challenge some of the assumptions I made, and I realized that while I'm not liberal, I can't really consider myself a conservative either. I hold views that are not fully in line with either camp.

Now you can say I assume things about politicians all you want, and maybe that's true. But they are assumptions that I have made based on conversations I've had with numerous people across a wide range of experiences and views. And they are things I consider when I evaluate my own beliefs. I don't agree with a lot of what liberals say, and I don't agree a lot with what conservatives say. But there are things I do agree with liberals on. There are things I agree with conservatives on. One of my beliefs, and this comes from a study of history not just in this country, is that the mixture of Christianity with worldly politics is a bad mix, regardless of political ideology. Constantine opened the door for politically motivated people to use Christianity as a means to power within the Roman empire by legalizing Christianity and signaling that it was his preferred religion. Since the time of the Roman Empire's demise, the various nations of Europe have struggled in how to treat both secular political authority and ecclesiastical political authority. At time when the Roman Catholic Church basically served as the de facto government, that was when corruption was at its height. The Holy Roman Empire, described as being neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire, had nearly 1000 years of infighting not just between sacred and secular authority, but when the Protestant Reformation broke out both sides did terrible things in God's name.

Christianity was understood in its first three centuries of existence as being more concerned about the establishment of God's kingdom on Earth rather than trying to make Earthly kingdoms more heavenly, and it is my firmly held belief that we would be better off as the Church if we actually put the Kingdom of God above our earthly kingdom. Give honor to whom it is due, pray for those in power and authority, but God goes before political parties, politics, governments, candidates, what have you.

As for politicians reciting a prayer, politicians can say whatever they want. Bush Sr said "No new taxes." We got new taxes. Bill Clinton said "I did not have relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinky"...well, yes he did. Bush Jr said "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction." Well, no they didn't. It doesn't matter what a politician says. It's what they do that matters. Melania Trump, or anyone else for that matter, can say a prayer, quote scripture, okay, fine. But even Jesus said to not be like those who put their faith on display for the approval of others, for they have their reward.

So maybe I do make assumptions, but they are based on my own study of history as well as conversations I've had with many people, many of whom I don't completely agree with. But hey, if I can at least understand where they're coming from, maybe I have a better chance of reaching them. Isn't that what Jesus did? Actually meet people where they were instead of repeating the popular things of 1st century Palestine?

[Guest shiloh357]

13 hours ago, CCole1983 said:

And people in the mob think they're legitimate businessmen doing legitimate business.

I don't think they think they are legitimate.  They know they are criminals.  Evidently, it's okay for you to assume things about us, but you demand we not make assumptions about you.   You justify in yourself the very thing you condemn in others.

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How many people outside of Christian evangelical conservative circles do you actually talk with and listen to? Do you engage in discussion (not debate) with people who live outside your echo chamber?

I work and have worked and lived around unbelievers.  I don't live in an "echo chamber"  despite your implied assumption that I do.

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As for politicians reciting a prayer, politicians can say whatever they want. Bush Sr said "No new taxes." We got new taxes. Bill Clinton said "I did not have relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinky"...well, yes he did. Bush Jr said "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction." Well, no they didn't. It doesn't matter what a politician says. It's what they do that matters. Melania Trump, or anyone else for that matter, can say a prayer, quote scripture, okay, fine. But even Jesus said to not be like those who put their faith on display for the approval of others, for they have their reward.

And on what basis do you imply that she is putting her faith on display to get the approval of others?

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So maybe I do make assumptions, but they are based on my own study of history as well as conversations I've had with many people, many of whom I don't completely agree with. But hey, if I can at least understand where they're coming from, maybe I have a better chance of reaching them. Isn't that what Jesus did? Actually meet people where they were instead of repeating the popular things of 1st century Palestine?

Yeah, 'cause you're the only one on this board that talks to non-Christians, right?  

80% of your response had absolutely nothing to do with what I said to you. You pretty much ignored my response, so that tells me that you really don't have a response or answer to most, if not all of the questions you were asked.  The fact that you talk to non-Christians is really meaningless and is a non-response, and really doesn't matter where this thread is concerned.

I don't really care whom you have spoken with.  That is completely beside the point.  The point is that you make a lot of assumptions about me and others here that you have no right to make and you make unfounded accusations against Christians who wear their faith in public (the way it is supposed to be worn) and you assume things about them you could not possibly know.   The accusation that they are trying to win points with Republicans by praying or quoting Scripture in public is a false accusation, the accusation  that we or they think that Christianity is one and the same with the Republican party, is another false accusation with no basis in fact, which is why you ignored my remarks on that, as well.

Your response really adds nothing meaningful to the issues raised.