Forgive or pray for God to execute Judgment

[Danger Noodle]

On 3/25/2017 at 11:19 AM, cherubim said:

I have a question that I have struggled with for a long time. In The Old Testament psalms, David prayed for judgment on his enemies - the "Imprecatory Psalms" - then Christ said to "love your enemies, pray for those who use and persecute you." When someone does something despicable to you - how are you supposed to know whether to pray for God's judgment on them, or pray *for* them? I'm a long time Christian and this still stumps me.

I have seen people get away with atrocities, and do not appear to have gotten repaid for the evil they did.  Even when Christ said to pray for your enemies, he didn't say specifically *what* to pray.

Has anyone else stumbled with this?  

Well, I see forgiveness as something I do for my own sake. This way I can lay down the bag of bricks that is anger, resentment, grudge, even hatred when I've been trespassed upon by someone. When I forgive them I'm not saying what they did is OK. I'm saying I release all those negative emotions that would otherwise give their reprehensible persona continued power over me. I refuse to allow them to darken or steal my joy. 

And in so doing I take a deep breath and exhale and release all those negative emotions into God's hands. And one thing I've found that works wonders for me is to destroy something in the process when the emotions are really upsetting. I found how this works one day when I had a cup in my hand after getting off the phone after a really upsetting conversation with a client. I maintained professionalism on the phone and yet when I hung up I let all the frustration from months of planning that just went south go. I screamed to the top of my lungs to let it all out. The benefit of having a home office let me just say.  And then I grabbed this empty teacup on my desk that I had been about to go fill before the phone rang and I threw it against the far wall. Screaming again. 

What a release. I felt so good taking out my frustrations on that cup.  And the poor cup never saw it coming. The wall may have being if it could talk it would have told you it heard the screams leading up to that. 

After that cleanup and apology to the wall I ended up going to a local trinket store that sells everything for a buck. I left with $20.00 worth of little ceramic nick-nacks and a package of 50 count brown paper lunch bags and a roll of duck tape. I went home, put a trinket in each bag, double bagged them, then twisted the bag shut and duck taped it closed. 

I have an empty bottom drawer in my desk. I put them in there. Now, I have probably 100 bags of that type in that drawer. And on the rare occasion when I get frustrated I smash heck out of them. Right against the wall. Great therapy let me just say. And no cleanup like before. I just go pick up the bag, cut it open and toss the ceramics in the recycling bin so that I give back to the environment everything used to release upset. Great therapy and it doesn't cost me $300.00 an hour for some therapist either. "How does that make you feel?" Obviously like I need to give you hundreds of dollars to ask me that stupid question lady.  Not. I can donate that money to the local women's shelter instead. 

The way I see it, I forgive and that free's me. The person that works evil or what have you has to live with themselves and that which is inside them causing them to act that way. That's suffering on their part already. God is with me and with you. He knows what is going on because he see's all. And he will repay. It isn't my place to play God and do something against my enemies. Because what I could do could get me in hot water on many different levels. While what God does resonates throughout eternity. And in his own time by his own plan his vengeance on my behalf could lead that offender to him. So I let that be the way it is. 

Hope this helps you. May our Father's blessings and strength surround you and give you peace. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Danger Noodle

[cherubim]

5 minutes ago, Danger Noodle said:

Well, I see forgiveness as something I do for my own sake. This way I can lay down the bag of bricks that is anger, resentment, grudge, even hatred when I've been trespassed upon by someone. When I forgive them I'm not saying what they did is OK. I'm saying I release all those negative emotions that would otherwise give their reprehensible persona continued power over me. I refuse to allow them to darken or steal my joy. 

And in so doing I take a deep breath and exhale and release all those negative emotions into God's hands. And one thing I've found that works wonders for me is to destroy something in the process when the emotions are really upsetting. I found how this works one day when I had a cup in my hand after getting off the phone after a really upsetting conversation with a client. I maintained professionalism on the phone and yet when I hung up I let all the frustration from months of planning that just went south go. I screamed to the top of my lungs to let it all out. The benefit of having a home office let me just say.  And then I grabbed this empty teacup on my desk that I had been about to go fill before the phone rang and I threw it against the far wall. Screaming again. 

What a release. I felt so good taking out my frustrations on that cup.  And the poor cup never saw it coming. The wall may have being if it could talk it would have told you it heard the screams leading up to that. 

After that cleanup and apology to the wall I ended up going to a local trinket store that sells everything for a buck. I left with $20.00 worth of little ceramic nick-nacks and a package of 50 count brown paper lunch bags and a roll of duck tape. I went home, put a trinket in each bag, double bagged them, then twisted the bag shut and duck taped it closed. 

I have an empty bottom drawer in my desk. I put them in there. Now, I have probably 100 bags of that type in that drawer. And on the rare occasion when I get frustrated I smash heck out of them. Right against the wall. Great therapy let me just say. And no cleanup like before. I just go pick up the bag, cut it open and toss the ceramics in the recycling bin so that I give back to the environment everything used to release upset. Great therapy and it doesn't cost me $300.00 an hour for some therapist either. "How does that make you feel?" Obviously like I need to give you hundreds of dollars to ask me that stupid question lady.  Not. I can donate that money to the local women's shelter instead. 

The way I see it, I forgive and that free's me. The person that works evil or what have you has to live with themselves and that which is inside them causing them to act that way. That's suffering on their part already. God is with me and with you. He knows what is going on because he see's all. And he will repay. It isn't my place to play God and do something against my enemies. Because what I could do could get me in hot water on many different levels. While what God does resonates throughout eternity. And in his own time by his own plan his vengeance on my behalf could lead that offender to him. So I let that be the way it is. 

Hope this helps you. May our Father's blessings and strength surround you and give you peace. 

You gave me a good laugh!  Very unique way of handling anger!

[Danger Noodle]

3 minutes ago, cherubim said:

You gave me a good laugh!  Very unique way of handling anger!

 I was surprised it worked so well that first time myself. 

[appy]

18 hours ago, cherubim said:

"You are misunderstanding this completely."  That's a leap of faith:)   I understand it fully.  Sometimes clear action can't be taken, yet some can in the situations you described, and action should be taken. 

My original post was that I struggled with the imprecatory psalms vs Christ's call to forgive, because they are polarities, and I wondered if anyone else struggled with this.  I can't imagine that I'm the only one who struggles with this.  For instance, I could "pray for enemies" by wishing them blessings, or I could "pray for enemies that God takes them out of circulation so they can't hurt anyone else."

I'm unsure which way God intends for us to pray - but I imagine that's something He'll reveal to me as He determines since it's something I've struggled with.  There have been many times when I've lamented like Habakuk, seeing the wicked prosper, and times I've prayed Psalm 73.  There were times I prayed the 35th Psalm.

We as Christians should not be praying imprecatory prayers, as a personal revenge on those who we don't like, or because we don't like what they do. That isn't what those prayers were about. David when he prayed those prayers was in a time when there were men who were desperately seeking to kill him. It was the old testament way of showing Godly attitude.

But this isn't the attitude of Christians. Jesus did not intend for us to be seeking death and bad things to happen to others. Instead Jesus meant that we are to be praying for them to experience repentance and salvation. There's no greater blessing than a personal relationship with Jesus and this is what Jesus meant when he told us to pray for others and to bless those who curse us.

Remember Stephen in Acts? When the men around him were stoning him, he didn't pray for bad things to happen to them. He prayed that God would not hold their actions that day against them. Essentially asking God to forgive them. And Jesus when he was on the cross, didn't ask God to cause harm on those who were killing him but to forgive them.

Praying instead for God to bless others as he did us allows God to soften our hearts towards those who hate us so that we will have a Godly compassion on the lost and remove the anger and bitterness from our hearts.

[cherubim]

15 minutes ago, giggling appy said:

We as Christians should not be praying imprecatory prayers, as a personal revenge on those who we don't like, or because we don't like what they do. That isn't what those prayers were about. David when he prayed those prayers was in a time when there were men who were desperately seeking to kill him. It was the old testament way of showing Godly attitude.

But this isn't the attitude of Christians. Jesus did not intend for us to be seeking death and bad things to happen to others. Instead Jesus meant that we are to be praying for them to experience repentance and salvation. There's no greater blessing than a personal relationship with Jesus and this is what Jesus meant when he told us to pray for others and to bless those who curse us.

Remember Stephen in Acts? When the men around him were stoning him, he didn't pray for bad things to happen to them. He prayed that God would not hold their actions that day against them. Essentially asking God to forgive them. And Jesus when he was on the cross, didn't ask God to cause harm on those who were killing him but to forgive them.

Praying instead for God to bless others as he did us allows God to soften our hearts towards those who hate us so that we will have a Godly compassion on the lost and remove the anger and bitterness from our hearts.

What you stated is only your interpretation.  None of us can presume or claim to speak for God or as the final authority on biblical interpretation. "Through presumption comes nothing but strife."  I know the context in which David said those prayers, and some very serious things are done in this life, in which holding someone accountable can't be done legally, but the evil was indeed great and caused much harm.  

I know what happened to Stephen, and how he prayed.  What of the verse in Timothy: "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil, the Lord reward him according to his works."   That doesn't sound like he prayed for Alexander to be blessed as you stated Christians should do.

I think it's such a hard issue, that over-simplifying can, and does, cause additional harm to those already harmed. I've seen believers behave with condemnation to other believers, telling them they must forgive; adding injury to an already injured person.  I've seen a lot through the years.  I'm uncertain what God wants us to do, and at this point, I'm going to keep reading the bible and staying open to whatever God may teach me.