Does the Body of Christ rule on earth in the millennium?

[Guest shiloh357]

37 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Isaiah 2: 2 - 4  & Micah 4: 1 - 4.

`Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains. And shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.

Many people shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths.”

For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and shall rebuke many people; they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.`

So how does the Lord teach and judge the peoples.

`I will restore your judges as at the first, and your counsellors as at the beginning. Afterwards you shall be called the city of righteousness , the faithful city.` (Isa. 1: 26)

`...the priests ...shall teach my people...In controversy they shall stand as judges and judge it according to my judgments. They shall keep my laws and my statutes in all my appointed meetings and they shall hallow my Sabbaths.` (Ez. 44: 23 & 24)

Here we see that the priests teach and judge different matters. This is the  administration of God`s theocratic government over Israel - the law and the word by judges.

And your point is....?

[Guest shiloh357]

41 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Amen bro, isn`t that wonderful!

So you agree He reign during the millennium is an earthly reign?  'Cause that was the point of that post...

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

So you agree He reign during the millennium is an earthly reign?  'Cause that was the point of that post...

I agree that Christ will rule & reign on earth, but NOT physically. Nothing in your post showed He was physically on earth.

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

And your point is....?

The point is that those scripture do not show that Christ is physically ruling on earth. They reveal that the priests will judge matters, teach the law & give God`s word. That is Christ administration on earth through Israel - King David, (earlier scriptures) & priests judging & teaching.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎2‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 6:40 PM, shiloh357 said:

 ...in Scripture all flesh on earth will worship Him while he is in His Millennial Temple, on earth.  (Is. 2: 2-4, 66:23-24; Zech. 14:16-17; Micah 4:1-4).

`And it shall come to pass that from New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before me,` says the Lord.

And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men, who have transgressed against me. For their worm does not die.` (Isa. 66: 23 - 24)

All flesh will worship the Lord every Sabbath, in their own countries, as the people of the world are not going to travel to Jerusalem every week. It is only once a year that representatives go to Jerusalem to worship the King.

`And it shall come to pass the everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and keep the Feast of Tabernacles.` (Zech. 14: 16 & 17)

Neither of those scriptures tell us that the Lord is physically seated in the temple in Jerusalem. People have worshipped the Lord for centuries and He has not been physically here.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I agree that Christ will rule & reign on earth, but NOT physically. Nothing in your post showed He was physically on earth.

That is a logical inconsistency.  He will rule on earth because Jesus is still in His human body.

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The point is that those scripture do not show that Christ is physically ruling on earth. They reveal that the priests will judge matters, teach the law & give God`s word. That is Christ administration on earth through Israel - King David, (earlier scriptures) & priests judging & teaching.

Actually, taken together, the only conclusion that can be reached if one is honest about the evidence is that Jesus will reign on earth, physically.  That is clearly what the Scriptures picture. All of the prophecies about the Millennium are about what happens on earth, not about what happens in Heaven.

None of the Scriptures pertaining to Jesus' role as Messiah make sense if Jesus isn't reigning on earth, because the Millennium is the Messianic Kingdom of Christ on earth.

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

`And it shall come to pass that from New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before me,` says the Lord.

And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men, who have transgressed against me. For their worm does not die.` (Isa. 66: 23 - 24)

All flesh will worship the Lord every Sabbath, in their own countries, as the people of the world are not going to travel to Jerusalem every week. It is only once a year that representatives go to Jerusalem to worship the King.

`And it shall come to pass the everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and keep the Feast of Tabernacles.` (Zech. 14: 16 & 17)

Neither of those scriptures tell us that the Lord is physically seated in the temple in Jerusalem. People have worshipped the Lord for centuries and He has not been physically here.

 

Well, during the millennium, it appears that most people will be living in pretty close proximity to Israel and the population centers will look quite a bit different than they do today.   What it means is that there will be continuous flow to the temple by everyone all year long. 

Yes, people have worshiped the Lord without His physical presence.   But that changes during the millennium. 

You continue to fail in the realization that Jesus has to have a physical kingdom in order to fulfill the Messianic prophecies and promises made to Israel.   Jesus is going to rule the world and He is going to be Israel's Messiah, concurrently.  He is going to physically reign on earth because that is what the prophecies promise.    Prophecy is always fulfilled literally.  And all Messianic prophecy is fulfilled on earth, since Jesus' role as Messiah pertains to unique  relationship He has with Israel.

Your problem is that you are trying to spiritualize all of this, as if everything Jesus does only pertains to the Church.   Jesus is still Israel's Messiah and there are a host of Messianic prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

 

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 

Actually, taken together, the only conclusion that can be reached if one is honest about the evidence is that Jesus will reign on earth, physically. 

 He is going to physically reign on earth because that is what the prophecies promise.   

Your problem is that you are trying to spiritualize all of this,

 

Talking of `honesty,` Shiloh, you need present the scripture/s that actually show that Jesus is physically on the earth during the millennium. I have dealt with your so-called scriptures & they are NOT what you say. You said -

 ` He is going to physically reign on earth because that is what the prophecies promise.`  

So where are these `prophecies` that say Jesus will reign physically on the earth.

As to trying to spiritualize all of this, I think you don`t understand concerning the ascended exalted Son of God. He has a glorified body that is visible and tangible, and He will reign over all as His Father has promised. You are trying to limit the Lord of glory to just this earth. This planet is but one part of His great domain.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Talking of `honesty,` Shiloh, you need present the scripture/s that actually show that Jesus is physically on the earth during the millennium. I have dealt with your so-called scriptures & they are NOT what you say. You said -

 ` He is going to physically reign on earth because that is what the prophecies promise.`  

So where are these `prophecies` that say Jesus will reign physically on the earth.

As to trying to spiritualize all of this, I think you don`t understand concerning the ascended exalted Son of God. He has a glorified body that is visible and tangible, and He will reign over all as His Father has promised. You are trying to limit the Lord of glory to just this earth. This planet is but one part of His great domain.

 

1.  Isaiah 9:6-7 tells us that Jesus will establish an earthly Kingdom on the throne of David:  

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jesus returns to earth to, physically, to fulfill this prophecy.  This passage is alluded to by the angel Gabriel when he spoke to Mary, but the part about the throne of David is almost a direct quote.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
(Luk 1:32-33)

The Jewish people were awaiting a King/Messiah who would establish an earthly Kingdom.  Why?  Because that is what the prophecies tell us will happen.   To the Jewish ear and from a Hebraic mindset, there is nothing in that prophecy that suggests a heavenly reign.  The reference to David's throne strongly indicates an earthy reign, as every reference to David's throne in the OT is always on earth, never in Heaven.   There is no NT reference to the throne of David being located in Heaven.

2.  An earthly reign is the only way to be consistent in how one interprets Messianic prophecy.   Messianic prophecy is a subset of biblical prophecy and Messianic prophecy is always fulfilled on earth, as I stated before.   There are no heavenly fulfillments of any Messianic prophecies. 

• Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
• Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the foal of a donkey (Zech 9:9)
• Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zech. 11: 12)
• Jesus was pierced (Zech. 12:10)
• Jesus died by crucifixion (Psalm 22:16)
• Jesus Jesus was beaten, died, buried, bore our sin, and rose from the dead (Is. 53)

There are 333 Messianic prophecies. 109 were fulfilled at His first coming.   Some 224 OT Messianic prophecies pertain to  his Second Coming and will fulfilled the same way.  So when we encounter Messianic prophecies about Jesus earthly Messianic reign, they need to be interpreted literally and physically in order to be consistent.   I am speaking of prophecies such as:

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
(Psa 2:6-12)

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
(Jer 23:5-6)

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
(Jer 33:14-15)

Everything pertaining to the Millennium is earthly, not heavenly.   After all of the failed earthly empires, including the empire of the Antichrist, Jesus will return, destroy Israel's enemies and the final empire of the Antichrist in order to establish HIS kingdom on earth.

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
(Isa 11:1-10)

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
(Isa 65:17-25)

This is not a reference to the New Heavens and New Earth mentioned in Revelation 21-22.  Jerusalem will not exist in the New Heavens and New Earth.   It is describing the supernatural conditions and peace that will exist in the Millennium.  There is also mention of old men and dying at 100 years of age, which will not be the case during the New Heavens and New Earth.   There will be sinners in the Millennium as well, as indicated above and in Revelation 20.  And of course, they will be having offspring (Tribulation survivors will be believers but will not have glorified bodies and will have children during the Millennium).

These and other prophecies that I have already shared indicate an understanding of an earthly kingdom, if they are read honestly and in the plain sense in which they are intended to be understood. 

 

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 

 

We have agreed that the Lord will `sit on the throne of David,` and that is an earthly throne over Israel and the nations. All the prophecies clearly tell us this. However....they DO NOT say that the Lord has to be physically here on earth.

You have agreed with me concerning `the throne,` that it is a symbol of the Lord`s authority and power. You said -

`Again, this is not about a piece of furniture, ultimately.  The throne represents Jesus' power and authority on earth as King.` 

 And we both agree that the Lord`s power and authority is on the earth in the millennium over Israel and the nations.

You also agreed that a king named David, the Prince, was a king in Israel. But as I said that makes 2 kings over Israel and God said there would only be one.

 `...one king shall be king over them all...` (Ez. 37: 22)

Thus the Lord`s power and authority is through king David and the priests who judge. This is the Lord`s government in Israel in the millennium. King David rules as a mortal man with earthly limitations, corresponding to the authority of David`s throne - earthly rule.

The Lord, however is not a mortal man and has supernatural abilities, and these do not come from `David`s Throne,` David`s authority. The Lord Himself tells us that He is the source of David`s authority.

`I am the Root and Offspring of David,..` (Rev. 22: 16)

As the `Offspring of David,` the Lord is heir to David`s throne, however as `the Root of David,` He precedes David, and is the source of David`s ability and authority.

The Lord`s authority goes far beyond `David`s Throne.` Scripture tells us -

`Jesus said - `All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.` (Matt. 28: 18)

Jesus` authority - `far above all...every name that is named, (even David) not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)

We read of the Lord`s authority in the millennium over the nations. By His supernatural ability He punishes the rebellious by controlling the forces of nature - not sending rain to them, but a plague. This is NOT an authority or ability that is inherent in David`s throne / authority.

 Similarily at the end of the millennium we read that the Lord send fire down from heaven upon Satan and the rebellious nations. This also is NOT an authority of David`s throne.

Thus we see that the Lord has the authority not only of David`s throne but also an authority that is far, far above what He calls His `footstool.`

`Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.` (Isa, 66: 1)

[Guest shiloh357]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

We have agreed that the Lord will `sit on the throne of David,` and that is an earthly throne over Israel and the nations. All the prophecies clearly tell us this. However....they DO NOT say that the Lord has to be physically here on earth.

He will sit on an earthly throne and rule the nations.  It's a throne on earth and Jesus will be on earth to sit on it.   It's pretty clear that we are talking about an earthly reign.

Quote

 

You have agreed with me concerning `the throne,` that it is a symbol of the Lord`s authority and power. You said -

`Again, this is not about a piece of furniture, ultimately.  The throne represents Jesus' power and authority on earth as King.` 

 

Right but that's true about any throne of any king.  It represents his authority and power.  But there is still a literal throne.  It is not merely a symbol; there is an actual, physical reign taking place and an actual throne that he sits upon.

Quote

You also agreed that a king named David, the Prince, was a king in Israel. But as I said that makes 2 kings over Israel and God said there would only be one.

Jesus will be king over the entire earth and King David will be his vice regent over Israel.   God has always been King over Israel and the whole world.   Yes, there will be one king directly ruling in Israel, and that will be David.   The point the prophet was making was to point to the unified monarchy.   At the time the prophet was writing, Israel and Judah had been ruled by two separate kingdoms, with kings in the north and kings in the south.    The prophet is looking to a time (the Millennium) when there would be one king over them both.  In the millennium that king will be David.

That does not mean that Jesus will not be king over Israel and the whole world.   You are really over-thinking it.   The rule of David on earth in Israel doesn't preclude the fact that Jesus will rule the whole world from Israel.

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The Lord, however is not a mortal man and has supernatural abilities, and these do not come from `David`s Throne,` David`s authority. The Lord Himself tells us that He is the source of David`s authority.

`I am the Root and Offspring of David,..` (Rev. 22: 16)

As the `Offspring of David,` the Lord is heir to David`s throne, however as `the Root of David,` He precedes David, and is the source of David`s ability and authority.

 

You are really trying to force something on the text that isn't there.   He is not saying he is the root or source of David's authority, actually.   Jesus is a physical descendant of David.    As God, Jesus predates David.   But not in His humanity.    Jesus is still fully God and fully man.   His humanity is still Jewish and He is still from the tribe of Judah and he is still of the royal line of David.    When he says that He is root and offspring of David, He is claiming to come from David.  He is not claiming that David came from Him.  So your take on Jesus as the "root of David"  is mistaken.

"Root and offspring of David"  is a messianic title.  It is Jesus' physical descent from David that is His claim to the throne of David.   Only a man in the line of David is fit to take David's throne.   Jesus is the only living Jewish man who can trace His ancestry through the royal line.  The Messiah only comes through the tribe of Judah and then only through David's line and Jesus meets both criteria in His humanity.    Jesus' reign will Davidic. 

Quote

 

The Lord`s authority goes far beyond `David`s Throne.` Scripture tells us -

`Jesus said - `All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.` (Matt. 28: 18)

Jesus` authority - `far above all...every name that is named, (even David) not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)

We read of the Lord`s authority in the millennium over the nations. By His supernatural ability He punishes the rebellious by controlling the forces of nature - not sending rain to them, but a plague. This is NOT an authority or ability that is inherent in David`s throne / authority.

Similarily at the end of the millennium we read that the Lord send fire down from heaven upon Satan and the rebellious nations. This also is NOT an authority of David`s throne.

Thus we see that the Lord has the authority not only of David`s throne but also an authority that is far, far above what He calls His `footstool.`

`Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.` (Isa, 66: 1)

 

I think it is a foregone conclusion that Jesus' reign, though, earthly, will also be greater than just the Messianic component.   He will be Messiah over Israel, reigning from Israel.  But, His reign is not limited in scope to Israel.   He will rule the whole world.   His reign will exceed His Davidic reign as Israel in that He is King throughout the entire world and will reign with a rod of iron. Again, you're really trying to force something into this that simply isn't there.