THE MODESTY DEBATE

[LadyKay]

38 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I think you're oversimplifying the problem.  This is about modesty in Church and women dressing provocatively.   We are not passing judgement on anyone. And this is not about the world.   And in the Church, you're part of something larger than yourself, and those who are dressing in a way that can cause another believer to stumble, should be admonished about it.   Correction and judgement are not the  same thing.    If a woman is coming to church dressed in a manner that is leaving less to the imagination, then she should be corrected and asked not dress in that way, and she is offended, that is her problem, not anyone else's.  

 

I didn't read threw the whole topic. So I do not know where we are in this topic.  I did read the first post and a few others afterwords, therefor felt my post was appropriate for the topic.  Anyway you may not think this is about judgment and that if fine to do so as that is your point of view. But I think it is. Which is my point of view when a women is shamed for wearing a swim suit or a pair of shorts.( my comment was on the swim suit issue so that is why I am talking about swim suits)  No I am not saying anyone here did that. Overall I was trying to simply give what I thought was good advice on the topic and I just happen to use the word "judging" to which you picked out and ran with for some reason I do not know. 

[Running Gator]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

I think you're oversimplifying the problem.  This is about modesty in Church and women dressing provocatively.   We are not passing judgement on anyone. And this is not about the world.   And in the Church, you're part of something larger than yourself, and those who are dressing in a way that can cause another believer to stumble, should be admonished about it.   Correction and judgement are not the  same thing.    If a woman is coming to church dressed in a manner that is leaving less to the imagination, then she should be corrected and asked not dress in that way, and she is offended, that is her problem, not anyone else's.  

 

Who gets to decide how much should be left to the imagination? 

[Fidei Defensor]

I have covered this topic on my blog. I wrote this following post on Modesty:

"We live in times where modesty has gone the way of morality in western societies. Many women now wear skimpy skirts, daisy Duke shorts, yoga pants that reveal all, and more. In Summer the swim suites have progressed from tank tops, and two pieces, to near full on nudity. Modesty is a rare commodity these days, and what may fascinate women is that men are drawn to modesty. Wait what? Why do you think lingerie like Victoria Secret is so popular? It is because it is part of the excitement of concealing what is sacred and private for matrimony. Men have minds that are often tempted by what is concealed, what is hidden. But, modesty does not just arouse, it creates interactions between the sexes that are not sexual in nature. A man does not feel distracted by a busting bosom if it is modestly dressed, and so can focus on the woman's eyes, face, and her words. Modesty goes both ways. Men can be immodest to especially with speedos, going shirtless, and even wearing prison jeans with no belt showing their backside.

Our society has become so saturated with sexual perversion in forms of pornography and immodest behavior that we are losing the sacred and joy of it all. Sex is becoming like buying soda pop and Swiss cheese. As time progresses and hormones subside, there will be disillusionment with the natural forms of sensuality meant for marriage. It will take more and more wild and depraved sexual actions to arouse because most people have become so desensitized to what is normal. The expecations movies and advertising on television create are bound to lead to people being disappointed with God ordained consummation in the marriage bed. The fantasy and the visuals that are modeled everyday are creating an insatiability and unrealistic belief of what intimacy between a man and woman is suppose to be. And it all begins with a lack of modesty.

Reversing this culture is going to be nearly impossible, though "all things are possible through Christ who strengthens us." (Phillippians 4:13). I am not calling for women to dress like Nuns, or put on Burkas, that is excessive modesty. I am talking about if a bosom is to be shown, it can be done stylishly and with taste like in Medieval days and Elizabethan Times oppose to near full nudity of today. The difference back then was people could dress like Queen Elizabeth I with bosoms shown, but the rest was covered modestly. Because back then breasts were not the most sensual part of body. They covered up the sensual part of body, but today breasts and the private regions are sensual, and yet there is a goal to expose them in our world today. In the regions of Africa, there are tribes were women have breasts exposed, but its not sensual, because to their society it isn't. But in West it is sensual, and so why are people exposing and doing exhibitionism?! We are Christians and are called to be, "Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes.Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, " (1 Peter 3:3-5), and "I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God." (1 Timothy 2:9-10). Both the Apostle Peter and the Apostle Paul call for modesty. They address the women because women generally have an ability to entice men to temptation by dress then men. Again this is because men are more visual than women and so a peak at something normally covered causes the imaginations of men to run wild.

I do not believe it is wrong for men or women to wear jewelry, dress nicely, and enjoy garments. I believe the apostles were addressing women who now being free in Christ Jesus thought they could copy the Roman and Greek dress. Let me make this point, Roman women had their breasts exposed as all times, in fact Josephus, a Jewish Scribe and Philo describe Roman women by their eye color and nipple color. Peter and Paul are trying to discourage women in Church from adopting the customns of the world, which in those days to wear earrings was to be prostitute. That is not the case of today, but we must be mindful of what we wear, for it can say volumes to those who observe us and are watching us live out the Gospel. How can you claim to be modest follower of Christ and then dress like a seductress or male seducer? Are we of the world or to copy it? No you are not: "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will," (Romans 12:2), "You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God," (James 4:4), "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them," (1 John 2:15), and Jesus Christ said, "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." (John 15:19). 

There is a fine balance between enjoying some good things of earth and copying the world's fashion of immodesty. Granted, some designers are not making immodest dresses and outfits. But we must be mindful, should we wear anything that makes another stumble? The Apostle Paul says, " Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God.." (1 Corinthians 10:33). So obey God's word, cloak yourself in God's righteousness (Isaiah 59:17), and be zealous to do the work of Lord: "Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction." (2 Timothy 4:2). Remember, that you preach with your mouth, and your body. So make your body a living sacrifice to the Lord Jesus, "Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship." (Romans 12:1). So live holy and pleasing to God, not in excessive modestly or in immodesty, but rather in proper modesty before the Almighty God." (Modesty, A Knight's Blog, Feb 15 2016)
 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Fidei Defensor

[Guest shiloh357]

57 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

I didn't read threw the whole topic. So I do not know where we are in this topic.  I did read the first post and a few others afterwords, therefor felt my post was appropriate for the topic.  Anyway you may not think this is about judgment and that if fine to do so as that is your point of view. But I think it is.

What is judgmental about someone telling a girl in church that dressing provocatively is inappropriate?   That is not judgmental. There is no biblical case for saying that it is judgemental.

Quote

Which is my point of view when a women is shamed for wearing a swim suit or a pair of shorts.( my comment was on the swim suit issue so that is why I am talking about swim suits)  No I am not saying anyone here did that. Overall I was trying to simply give what I thought was good advice on the topic and I just happen to use the word "judging" to which you picked out and ran with for some reason I do not know. 

You said it was judgmental, so I addressed that.   I don't think anyone can make the case that it is judgmental to expect people to dress appropriately for Church.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

41 minutes ago, Running Gator said:

Who gets to decide how much should be left to the imagination? 

Again, that is one of those things where you constantly try to muddy the water when it comes to godly issues.  Seems to come up in every thread like this.  

When we say that someone has dressed in a way that leaves little to the imagination, we all know what that means.   And so I see little profit in going in circles with this kind of meaningless and pointless line of argumentation.

 

[Running Gator]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

Again, that is one of those things where you constantly try to muddy the water when it comes to godly issues.  Seems to come up in every thread like this.  

When we say that someone has dressed in a way that leaves little to the imagination, we all know what that means.   And so I see little profit in going in circles with this kind of meaningless and pointless line of argumentation.

 

Godly issues are not at the whim of man's opinion.   So, is the "we" who know the royal we or are you just assuming everyone thinks just like you?

[Neighbor]

Odd, seems some got beat up verbally here recently for saying they would not go to dinner nor be in  private in an office with a woman. 

Now "we" worry and tsk tsk  about attire at church, as though it is different from attire elsewhere. Is it proper to be immodest anywhere  at any time in general public situations?

 The most sensuous of women are  usually well dressed. They carry themselves as modest but caring about their personal appearance and sanitation.

Personally I am not too "excited" by seeing  the flawed bodies that  prance around bouncing and jouncing in leggings that reveal everything that tv ads tell  us could be corrected with one product or another. The worst?  those awful leggings  and jersey dresses combined on mature women. Whoa, Nellie. Please! my eyes. And skinny jeans, no one is skinny enough for  skinny jeans!

At Bob Evans Restaurant yesterday for breakfast, a lady of some girth got up after eating and shook to get her string belt  down off her upper upper waist right under her massive top and to also lower her hemline to at least thighs. I had all I could do to order my food after. It had looked like a rhino was playing with a hula hoop. Now that is mean of me, I know!!!, and truth is she could have looked my way and thought; what is that old weeble wobble geezer doing in a pullover shirt and baggy shorts before church even?

Good taste in attire is rare, very rare these days, never mind modesty, and to me that is why a well dressed woman is a prize to behold  and compliment with the mind's eye. One look mind you, not a lear. Well maybe two looks,  because of the aging eyes.

My church lament? PERFUMES, oh please ladies past forty, your noses are desensitized. If you can smell it, it is way too strong for the rest of us, way, way, too strong, really! And never ever use that choking  dusty rose smell. Thanks.

 

 

Or, we could go to worship in  the way of innocence that God must have originally envisioned.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Neighbor
to correct a spelling error.

[missmuffet]

God has blessed some women with a beautiful face and figure. A man can admire a beautiful woman and that is ok.This woman has the choice of acting and dressing in a manner that respects God. But then you take a woman who says " if you've got it flaunt it" which many women so say.She dresses and acts in a way that does not respect God. So who is ultimately wrong in this case? The woman who has chosen to dress provocatively and display half of her body or the man who many think has a lustful eye and brain because this woman half dressed has just paraded before him?

[missmuffet]

What do you think about this statement?

[Guest shiloh357]

21 minutes ago, Running Gator said:

Godly issues are not at the whim of man's opinion.   So, is the "we" who know the royal we or are you just assuming everyone thinks just like you?

I am saying that the average person knows exactly what it means when we say that someone is dressing in a manner that leaves little to the imagination.   

Provocative dress isn't godly dress and I doubt you will find any  committed followers of Jesus who think otherwise.  That is not man's opinion, that is based on biblical principles of modesty.