Did Paul Have a Woman as His Pastor? (Charisma News)

[PlanetChee]

I found this article linked at Charisma when reading an article about someone else. 

Charisma News Article Linked

Phoebe was a woman leader for whom Paul had great respect as is borne out in the language he used to describe her. The power of his words is lost in our English translations but is very obvious in the Greek (Rom. 16:1-2). In fact, an argument could be made from Paul's own words that Phoebe had once functioned in a pastoral-type role toward him.

Phoebe Was a Minister

In Romans 16:1, Paul refers to Phoebe as, "A servant of the church in Cenchrea." The English word "servant" in this passage is misleading. It is from the Greek word diakonos and should be translated as "minister."

Indeed, diakonos is translated as "minister" in 23 places where it is used of men, including Paul, Barnabas and Apollos (1 Cor. 3:4). In this one place where it is used of a woman, these same translators chose to use the word "servant," a clear example of their bias (Hyatt, Paul, Women and Church, 26).

Diakonos does literally means "servant" but became a word for Christian leaders as a result of Jesus using it in response to the request by James and John for special seats of power in His kingdom. Jesus replied that whoever wanted to be great must become a diakonos, that is, a "servant."

From that declaration of Jesus, diakonos became a common designation for Christian ministers, highlighting the servant character of Christian leadership. The well-known evangelical theologian, E. Earle Ellis, wrote:

Diakonos is used frequently in the Pauline letters for those who exercise ministries of teaching and preaching. The title is given to Paul and to a number of his associates who are active on a continuing basis as traveling missionaries or as coworkers in local congregations. In terms of modern function, it best corresponds to the modern designation "minister" (Hyatt, Paul, Women and Church, 27).

Designating Phoebe as a diakonos shows that she was a "minister" from the church in Cenchrea who had been sent by that church to Rome on a special assignment. Paul recognizes her as such by using the same word for her that he uses for himself, for Barnabas and for Apollos.

Read More @ Charisma News 

 

 

[simplejeff]

Recently, Corrie ten Boom was a faithful and true minister,  a servant,  YHWH'S servant, in 63 countries,

and speaking to women, children, handicapped , and men,

but NEVER over men,  with authority, as if authorized by YHWH or His Word,  no, never.

 

[PlanetChee]

What do you consider "authority over men" 

[OneLight]

not another one.  Why can't we just do as God leads us to do without arguing about titles?

[simplejeff]

Here is one of a multitude of examples of the testimony of Jesus overcoming,  

of speaking the Truth, without disobedience:

------------------------------------

"The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, “Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?”

The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

“When I was a little girl, ” I said, “I went to my father and said, “Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a marty for Jesus Christ.” “Tell me,” said Father, “When you take a train trip to Amsterdam, when do I give you the money for the ticket? Three weeks before?” “No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train.” “That is right,” my father said, “and so it is with God’s strength. Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ. He will supply all you need – just in time…”

My African friends were nodding and smiling. Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing, ” In the sweet, by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore.”

 

Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed.

I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago...."

https://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/02/03/prepared-for-the-coming-tribulation/

[missmuffet]

Phoebe was a servant of the Church and was highly respected by Paul. She was not Paul's Pastor. It is unclear what position that she held.

[PlanetChee]

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Recently, Corrie ten Boom was a faithful and true minister,  a servant,  YHWH'S servant, in 63 countries,

and speaking to women, children, handicapped , and men,

but NEVER over men,  with authority, as if authorized by YHWH or His Word,  no, never.

 

Jeff declined to answer my query for him to elaborate on what he means when he speaks of "authority over men". Therefore we'll continue without the elaboration. 

"but NEVER over men,  with authority, as if authorized by YHWH or His Word,  no, never."

Never? 

Samson's mother was given authority over Samson's father Manoah by God and his angel. The narrative in Judges chapter 13 reveals this.

^3. And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

⁴ Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:

⁵ For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

⁶ Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:

⁷ But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

⁸ Then Manoah intreated the Lord, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.

⁹ And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her.

¹⁰ And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.

¹¹ And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.

¹² And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass. How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him?

¹³ And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware.

¹⁴ She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe.

¹⁵ And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.

¹⁶ And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord.

¹⁷ And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?

¹⁸ And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

¹⁹ So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.

²⁰ For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

²¹ But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.

²² And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

²³ But his wife said unto him, If the Lord were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.

²⁴ And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the Lord blessed him.

²⁵ And the Spirit of the Lord began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol.

 

Judges 4 and 5 report of Deborah. Who did have authority over men. 

Because she was the leader of all of Israel. 

Judges 4

⁴ Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading^[a] Israel at that time. ⁵ She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramahand Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites went up to her to have their disputes decided.

Judges 5 features the song of Deborah. 

 

Then sang Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam on that day, saying,

² Praise ye the Lord for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.

³ Hear, O ye kings; give ear, O ye princes; I, even I, will sing unto theLord; I will sing praise to the Lord God of Israel.

⁴ Lord, when thou wentest out of Seir, when thou marchedst out of the field of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens dropped, the clouds also dropped water.

⁵ The mountains melted from before the Lord, even that Sinai from before the Lord God of Israel.

⁶ In the days of Shamgar the son of Anath, in the days of Jael, the highways were unoccupied, and the travellers walked through byways.

⁷ The inhabitants of the villages ceased, they ceased in Israel, until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel.

⁸ They chose new gods; then was war in the gates: was there a shield or spear seen among forty thousand in Israel?

⁹ My heart is toward the governors of Israel, that offered themselves willingly among the people. Bless ye the Lord.

¹⁰ Speak, ye that ride on white asses, ye that sit in judgment, and walk by the way.

¹¹ They that are delivered from the noise of archers in the places of drawing water, there shall they rehearse the righteous acts of the Lord, even the righteous acts toward the inhabitants of his villages in Israel: then shall the people of the Lord go down to the gates.

¹² Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.

¹³ Then he made him that remaineth have dominion over the nobles among the people: the Lord made me have dominion over the mighty.

¹⁴ Out of Ephraim was there a root of them against Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.

¹⁵ And the princes of Issachar were with Deborah; even Issachar, and also Barak: he was sent on foot into the valley. For the divisions of Reuben there were great thoughts of heart.

¹⁶ Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart.

¹⁷ Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches.

¹⁸ Zebulun and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field.

¹⁹ The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.

²⁰ They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

²¹ The river of Kishon swept them away, that ancient river, the river Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down strength.

²² Then were the horsehoofs broken by the means of the pransings, the pransings of their mighty ones.

²³ Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the Lord, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the Lord, to the help of the Lord against the mighty.

²⁴ Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

²⁵ He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.

²⁶ She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.

²⁷ At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead.

²⁸ The mother of Sisera looked out at a window, and cried through the lattice, Why is his chariot so long in coming? why tarry the wheels of his chariots?

²⁹ Her wise ladies answered her, yea, she returned answer to herself,

³⁰ Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colours, a prey of divers colours of needlework, of divers colours of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?

³¹ So let all thine enemies perish, O Lord: but let them that love him be as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years.

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

 

Then there's 2nd Samuel 20. And the civil leader and wise woman of Abel Beth Maacah.

 

Then of course there are the new testament women. Mary, Mary Magdalene, Martha. And let's not forget Peter's prophecy after Pentecost. 

Acts 2 (KJV)

¹⁷ And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

¹⁸ And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

 

And there's Paul's letters to the church at Corinth. Revealing God's Holy Spirit imbues people with His gifts regardless of gender. Of course. 

 

1 Corinthians 12:4-11

⁴ Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

⁵ And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

⁶ And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

⁷ But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

⁸ For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

⁹ To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

¹⁰ To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

¹¹ But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

King James Version (KJV)

 

I give this synopsis  from an article entitled: Bible Women with Spiritual Authority

 

There are many more women listed in that article with scripture to support.

 

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

not another one.  Why can't we just do as God leads us to do without arguing about titles?

I don't know about "another one". But I do agree. Let's see if people accept what the Bible says about women being vested by God with His spiritual authority. Anything else would be, what? 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, PlanetChee said:

I found this article linked at Charisma when reading an article about someone else. 

Charisma News Article Linked

Phoebe was a woman leader for whom Paul had great respect as is borne out in the language he used to describe her. The power of his words is lost in our English translations but is very obvious in the Greek (Rom. 16:1-2). In fact, an argument could be made from Paul's own words that Phoebe had once functioned in a pastoral-type role toward him.

Phoebe Was a Minister

In Romans 16:1, Paul refers to Phoebe as, "A servant of the church in Cenchrea." The English word "servant" in this passage is misleading. It is from the Greek word diakonos and should be translated as "minister."

Indeed, diakonos is translated as "minister" in 23 places where it is used of men, including Paul, Barnabas and Apollos (1 Cor. 3:4). In this one place where it is used of a woman, these same translators chose to use the word "servant," a clear example of their bias (Hyatt, Paul, Women and Church, 26).

Diakonos does literally means "servant" but became a word for Christian leaders as a result of Jesus using it in response to the request by James and John for special seats of power in His kingdom. Jesus replied that whoever wanted to be great must become a diakonos, that is, a "servant."

From that declaration of Jesus, diakonos became a common designation for Christian ministers, highlighting the servant character of Christian leadership. The well-known evangelical theologian, E. Earle Ellis, wrote:

Diakonos is used frequently in the Pauline letters for those who exercise ministries of teaching and preaching. The title is given to Paul and to a number of his associates who are active on a continuing basis as traveling missionaries or as coworkers in local congregations. In terms of modern function, it best corresponds to the modern designation "minister" (Hyatt, Paul, Women and Church, 27).

Designating Phoebe as a diakonos shows that she was a "minister" from the church in Cenchrea who had been sent by that church to Rome on a special assignment. Paul recognizes her as such by using the same word for her that he uses for himself, for Barnabas and for Apollos.

Read More @ Charisma News 

 

 

You have to be kind of careful about the word, "minister."   We use that word, today,  to denote someone who is in full time or bi-vocational "ministry,"  usually a pastor.   We should not read that meaning into diakonos.

But diakonos does not mean "minister" in the sense of pastor.  It means someone who serves.   Some translated this as "deacon"  but that is not really accurate. 

Charismatics are always looking for a way to justify women in pastoral leadership positions and this article is no exception.  But it is a failure if the author is trying to justify female pastors.

[missmuffet]

She could have been a deaconess.

[PlanetChee]

Wow.