Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Cities of the Nations are not an after thought, read the previous Vial that is poured out, who is gathered unto Meggido? THE CITIES of the NATIONS !! Watch this:

WHERE do these armies of all these nations go? Straight to ISRAEL. The bible is centered on Israel.  At the battle of Armageddon, things happen outside the city. But after that -  or at the same time: Jerusalem is attacked.

 

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

they are the Martyrs under the Alter in Seal #5

They will be martyrs but 70th week martyrs as shown in chapter 15. They cannot be seal 5 martyrs for they are CHURCH AGE martyrs.

It seems you love to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory.

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

But that in no way takes away from the Post I posted about Rev. 14, 16 and 18 being the Same Event, and the World being Babylon.

You find no problem with rearranging Revelation. I won't do it. And there is no need. It only leads to confusion as you have so nicely shown. You want the woman riding the beast to be the false religions of the world. But the Holy Spirit through John has proved her to be the city of Jerusalem. Chapter 18 shows her destruction.

 

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Again, you jump to conclusions, many were deceived way before the Anti-Christ came to power,

We are not talking about history, we are talking about the future.  During the last three years or so, the entire world will begin to worship the Beast and his religion - yes, even atheists that did not believe in anything before. Yes, even Buddhists that would not leave Buddhism for the truth, Christianity: even they will worship this beast. The false miracles will deceive them all. But you are right, NOT those whose names are written in heaven.

 

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

A Remnant of the Church will be on earth, but they will be martyred pf course.

Finally something we agree on!

 

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

But not the WHOLE WORLD as you seem to be insisting

I said just what John said, the WHOLE WORD except for those whose names are written in heaven. Do you imagine a Buddhist might refuse the mark and still end up in hell less their head? I don't. Their names will not be written in heaven, so they will be deceived into worshiping the beast and taking the mark.  What does this SAY? 

Revelation 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Women (Harlot) is KILLED OFF in 17:16, you keep trying to prolong her life, that's just not possible.

You are not reading that verse correctly: The verbs "shall" are FUTURE TENSE. They are saying what WILL happen in the future - and that future will be chapter 18.  Remember, John used Aorist tense verbs almost exclusively in Revelation, but occasionally - to show events soon to come - he used future tense.

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Islam is killed off along with ALL FALSE RELIGIONS. Babylon is World Governance which is of Satan. 

How do you know that Islam will not be the religion of the Beast and the religion that Satan chooses to deceive the entire world?  You will not let go of your false idea: Babylon, the woman riding the beast is JERUSALEM.  PERIOD! END OF STORY. All "false religions" end up worshiping the BEAST. It is HIS religion that is Babylon and it comes from that great city, JERUSALEM.  But, in a small way you are right, for it will be Satan behind that Beast and False prophet, and it will be HIM they are all worshiping. And the Beast will be the world government leader.

[n2thelight]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You need to go study 1 Thes 5 again. Paul is quite clear that while those living in darkness get sudden destruction - the start of God's wrath according to John at the 6th seal - those living in Christ get raptured and get to "live together with Him." And it is right in this context of the rapture where Paul tells us God will not set any appointments with His wrath.

oh, by the way, that seal mentioned in Rev. 7 is ONLY for the Hebrews. No mention is given for the seal INSIDE that believers have. IF any are left with the seal of the Holy Spirit inside, there is not one verse that tells us they will be protected.  That is only human reasoning. In Chapter 12, John mentions that there is only a remnant left. Why? Because the pretrib rapture took out the main load.

Do you understand the tribulation?

What I'm saying is ,why do you all escape and no one in scripture ever has?

[iamlamad]

8 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

Not one resource I've ever looked at used the word departure to describe apostasy.  Not Vines, Thayer's, or Strongs.  So you've fallen for a pre-trib fab.

Dare I say it? Spoon feeding again? READ!

Tyndale: 1525: Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Coverdale: 1535: Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion

Geneva bible:  1587: Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
 

However, on your side, two old translations did not use Departing.  I fell for pretrib TRUTH. Take off your preconceived glasses and look up these old bibles.

13 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

You wouldn't have to fabricate another coming of Christ and another rapture if you would accept that the coming of Christ AND THE GATHERING Jesus mentions in Mathew 24 comes AFTER the tribulation like the text says.

And you would not argue against a pretrib rapture if you discovered that gathering was not Paul's rapture. Did you ever notice WHERE that gathering gathers from? If you study it from all gospels you will find it gathers from the farthest points of heaven to the farthest points of earth. It is not Paul's rapture, which gathers from earth. And Paul's gathering will come just before the 6th seal, over 7 years before Rev. 19 timing.

 

15 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

It's saddening how many people have accepted these pre-trib fabrications.  

It is sadder how many people simply don't understand Paul in 1 Thes. 5. He tells  us the rapture comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord and as the trigger for it. But that does not fit your theories, so you ignore it.

 

18 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

You keep coming up with the word 'departure' to prop up your pre-trib view.  The word apostasy isn't defined as a departure.

You are simply wrong. I hope you figure it out before it is too late. Too many who are experts on Greek disagree with you. And again you use the English word to make your argument sound right. It is the GREEK word that was translation over and over as a departing. 

 

20 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

The other to describe someone that withholds the condition of lawlessness until IT is taken out of the way.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

So we have IT and we have HE, one a neuter and one a masculine pronoun. Why TWO? Because it is the Holy Spirit, or GOD HIMSELF who is the restrainer, but He must use the churches authority on earth.

23 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

"The mystery of lawlessness is already operating, but now during that time, the one presently detaining the man of sin does so until it (The apostasy) arises in your midst."

The words "he be taken" should be "it be taken" and  means...."IT comes into existence."

Arise, Arose, Arouse, Raise, Rise, Rouse:
"to become, to take place," is sometimes suitably translated "arise;" 

I think Young's literal does a better job:

7  for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder -- till he may be out of the way,

The he must refer back to the restrainer.All Greek Experts agree that there are two pronouns to define ONE restrainer: He and it.

" gone out of the midst" is an accurate translation also. Two ore three say "removed" and many say "taken out of the way." Paul's argument is, as long as the restainer is restraining the man of sin cannot be revealed. So it really does not matter who words the translators used to indicate the resrainer - the one hold down the revealing of the man of sin - as long as those words show that the restrainer is removed so that the power restraining is not longer restraining. Indeed, "taken out of the way" does that job. Removed does it. Gone from the midst does it. Even "becoming out of the midst" does it.

And in this way you are correct, for in 3b he IS REVEALED and in 3a it is the apostasia that is the restraining force removed. Now, if you like to think that a falling away from truth will be the restraining force removed, go ahead. You will just be wrong.

33 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

Every other religion views apostasy as abandoning their former political or religious affiliation and accepting another, or nothing at all.  It's a revolt and rebellion and a total abandonment of your previous affiliation.

Except, Paul did not use the English word apostasy! He used the Greek word Apostasia. Remember what the APO is translated as? Or did you ignore that part?

[n2thelight]

When is the end?

[iamlamad]

Just now, n2thelight said:

Do you understand the tribulation?

What I'm saying is ,why do you all escape and no one in scripture ever has?

Very simple: two reasons: one, it is in the bible. Two, there has never been before the end of the church age and the wrap up of the 6000 years of man's rule on earth. Oh, and there has never been the preparation for the millennial reign before either. These are very special days we are living in.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Wow, the dog is still chasing its tail?  Let me know when it has worn itself out. 

By the way, I've never seen where anyone ever won the "restrainer" debate, hint, hint............

[Revelation Man]

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WHERE do these armies of all these nations go? Straight to ISRAEL. The bible is centered on Israel.  At the battle of Armageddon, things happen outside the city. But after that -  or at the same time: Jerusalem is attacked.

 

And what does that have to do with what God calls them or sees them as? Jerusalem is not attacked, the Earthquake where Jesus lands on the Mt. of Olives is what causes the damage to Jerusalem, probably killing many of the Anti-Christs henchmen who run the city. These Nations or Cities of the Nations, the Kings of the East, Europe and all Nations that come to Armageddon to fight God are seen as BABYLON. God says so brother, in Rev. 16:19 he sees them as Babylon and is giving them his Wrath. In Rev. 14 we see the 144,000 land on Mt Zion and later on we see the Winepress of his Wrath right after and Angel says Babylon is Fallen, is Fallen. In Rev. 18 we see Babylon receiving the Plagues of God. Rev. 14, 16 and 18 is the Same Event, that's why we see Babylon fall in all three chapters. Chapter 16 finishes off the Anti-Christ, IT IS DONE !! 

Revelation 17 and 18 are events that have already passed by the time Rev. 16 takes place. They are just visions of inset things that happen in other chapters. I think you are an intelligent BUT STUBBORN person, I am stubborn also when the Holy Spirit reveals something unto me, but other than that, I am always going in with a blank mind. Sure, I heard about Rome and the 10 Kingdoms from long ago, and about the coming Islamic Leader. But until God reveals something to me, men do not impress me BIG TIME, I only lean on them a little for reference. If someone shows me something and the Holy Spirit says BOOM, then I will go with it, but we have a 100 ideas on Babylon, so I set out to understand Babylon, on my own, with no preconceptions, just the way I set out to find out about the Pre or post trib Rapture. 

I toss everything out and let the facts lead me by deduction of logic, then by the Holy Spirit affirming it. You see the first thing that led me to understanding that Babylon and the Harlot are two different entities is the Kings kill off the Harlot in Rev. 17:16, and they HATE HER. But the Kings in Rev. 18 Cry and Lament the destruction of BABYLON.......LOGIC they are TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES. Then I retrace my steps, and sure enough the Woman (Harlot) is riding the Beasts back (Harlot and Beast). Then as I thought the Beast represented Governments, in Daniel they were both Beasts and a Statue. So I got Governments out of Beasts and sure enough they were Governments. Then I said well what is the Harlot then, and sure enough, she seduced all the Kings of the Earth, she committed Fornication with the Kings. What could she be other that False Religion, because God always saw Israel as a HARLOT when she served FALSE GODS !! It started coming together for me. I had to study this in depth with this at the core, False Religion as the Harlot and False or Satan led Government as Babylon. I was on my way. 

Then it hit me that Satan is head faking everyone.  Both the Rome and Pope/10 Kings people and the Islamic Leader people. It is neither, the Kings kill the Harlot off, so what does that really mean? Gov. leaders kill off the Harlot (False Religion) but why? Then it hit me, the Anti-Christ is going to demand to be worshiped as God, he is not going to try to get 2 BILLION FANATICAL Muslims to worship him, hes going to bring them to heel. This is what will gain Israel's trust, they will sign a Peace Agreement. IT ALL FITS. 

Toss preconceptions out and just dig in man. 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

They will be martyrs but 70th week martyrs as shown in chapter 15. They cannot be seal 5 martyrs for they are CHURCH AGE martyrs.

It seems you love to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory.

The Church is in Heaven brother. You believe in the Rapture like me right? The Seals start being opened at the MID-WAY POINT. The Church is in Heaven. Those Martyrs were murdered by the Anti-Christ who comes forth in the First Seal. Chapters 4, 5, 7 and 19 are the Church in Heaven. Chapter 6 and the 5th Seal is the Martyrs under the Alter, Jesus tells them to wait until their fellow servants have been killed also, or until the Beasts 42 Months reign is over. 

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You find no problem with rearranging Revelation. I won't do it. And there is no need. It only leads to confusion as you have so nicely shown. You want the woman riding the beast to be the false religions of the world. But the Holy Spirit through John has proved her to be the city of Jerusalem. Chapter 18 shows her destruction.

 

Revelation is not in order brother. The Seals, Trumpets and Seals are in Order. Other parts are not in order per se. That's a proven fact. Why do you insist on something being in order when God never says its in order. Its OBVIOUS that chapter 14, 16 and 18 are the same events. Its obvious that if Armageddon happens in Rev. 16, that's the same event as Jesus returning and defeating the Beast in Rev. 19 also. Rev. 16 says IT IS DONE.....Rev. 17, 18 has already happened, as has 19, except for the part where they have the Marriage Supper and Cast the Beast/False Prophet into hell. 

Rev. 6, 12 and 13 are all happening at the MIDWAY POINT, that is why 1260 Days, 42 Months and a Time, times and a 1/2 time is so important in Revelation. Everything REVOLVES around the MIDWAY POINT. 42 months 1260 days twice, Rev. 6 is the MIDWAY POINT, the Anti-Christ conquers Israel and becomes a BEAST. Rev. 12 and 13 are Midway point events. I think Rev. 17 happens at the MIDWAY POINT because I think its False Religions being destroyed, and when would the Anti-Christ do that? As he is Conquering, of course, he destroys Islam and all Religions at the same time, during Rev. 6. And Rev. 18 is all the Plagues of God reigning down on the World, it says they are Plagues in Rev. 18. But John couldn't say God was going to burn the whole world, the Romans would have seen that as a threat. So Babylon was the CODE WORD. The Head of Gold.

The Seals, Trumpets and Vials rain down upon the World/BABYLON.  It starts at the Midway point (Rev. 6) because the first four Seals are Broken, and then the 6th Seal comes to pass, its an Earthquake, a Darkened Sun, a Blood moon and Meteorites falling from the skies. So Rev. 18 starts at the MIDWAY POINT but ENDS at Rev. 16, the Armageddon Battle. IT HAS TO END THERE !! Common sense. IT IS DONE !! 

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

We are not talking about history, we are talking about the future.  During the last three years or so, the entire world will begin to worship the Beast and his religion - yes, even atheists that did not believe in anything before. Yes, even Buddhists that would not leave Buddhism for the truth, Christianity: even they will worship this beast. The false miracles will deceive them all. But you are right, NOT those whose names are written in heaven.

 

I am talking about the FUTURE, although it could be some people on earth now who are already deceived. MY POINT is, some people who are on earth when the Anti-Christ comes to power, will have been serving Satan for years before he came to power, some via witchcraft, some via atheism, some via the Lusts and Greed of life, some who just HATE GOD, etc. etc. That was my point. 

Yes, the Weak will serve Satan. But not Israel who are protected in the Wilderness and not the Martyrs of course. Many in Islam will of course die, they die now for 70 Virgins, surely they will die at that time instead of worshiping a MAN BEAST. 

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I said just what John said, the WHOLE WORD except for those whose names are written in heaven. Do you imagine a Buddhist might refuse the mark and still end up in hell less their head? I don't. Their names will not be written in heaven, so they will be deceived into worshiping the beast and taking the mark.  What does this SAY? 

Revelation 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I have thought about that. Some might actually understand that the Christian Prophecies are coming true, you know the "MARK OF THE BEAST" and The Angels will be preaching the Gospel still and the Two-Witnesses will be testifying about Jesus and PREFORMING MIRACLES themselves, calling down Plagues. I believe the Wrath of the Lamb is Jesus opening the Seals. The Wrath of God the Father is the Vials being poured out, but catch this, I think the Trumpets are the Wrath of the Holy Spirit, and the Two-Witnesses CALL THE PLAGUES DOWN !!! 

That whole 13:8 thing is just telling us God knows ahead of time, He still gives us all FREE WILL and FREE CHOICE. 

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are not reading that verse correctly: The verbs "shall" are FUTURE TENSE. They are saying what WILL happen in the future - and that future will be chapter 18.  Remember, John used Aorist tense verbs almost exclusively in Revelation, but occasionally - to show events soon to come - he used future tense.

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Chapter 18 is a PAST event in accordance with Rev. 16, how can Armageddon have HAPPENED and there still be a Rev. 17 and 18?

The Harlot is killed off in Rev. 6. You have to put it together man. Rev. 16.....IT IS DONE !!

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

How do you know that Islam will not be the religion of the Beast and the religion that Satan chooses to deceive the entire world?  You will not let go of your false idea: Babylon, the woman riding the beast is JERUSALEM.  PERIOD! END OF STORY. All "false religions" end up worshiping the BEAST. It is HIS religion that is Babylon and it comes from that great city, JERUSALEM.  But, in a small way you are right, for it will be Satan behind that Beast and False prophet, and it will be HIM they are all worshiping. And the Beast will be the world government leader.

 For a lot of Reasons brother. Listen to my logic, let go of your preconceived beliefs for a minute and look at the Logic I use.

1. Israel would never come to a Peace/Security Agreement with any person who was associated with Islam, whereas they would never let their guard down. Daniel 8:25 says he destroys many by PEACE. Daniel 9:27 says the Anti-Christ enters into an Agreement with MANY including Israel of course. 

2. Satan is not dumb, and this the Anti-Christ will not be dumb. He is not going to try to get 2 Billion Muslims to Worship a MAN GOD/ A Beast. He is going to destroy them and subjugate them, and kill many. He probably gets the first Peace deal by Destroying Radical Islamist, thereby impressing Israel. Satan is a MASTER CHESS PLAYER. 

3. The Anti-Christ has to be an Assyrian, born in Greece, who comes to power in Europe via the Fourth Beasts terrain. Its in the Scriptures, Daniel 7 and 8 tell us exactly where he will be born. Daniel 11 tells us he is an Atheist. 

4. The World would never follow a Radical Muslim, that's just not going to happen. IMHO, this whole European Migration thing right now is Satan playing Chess, he wants to divide Europe into the strongest 10 Nations and he wants to turn the people into a region that detests these Muslims, and that will happen very shortly, you just watch, the people of Europe will rise up against their Liberal Leaders and Elect a Liberal Atheist who hates all Muslims, and cast out the Muslims, thus this new Leader will be anti-Muslim, and thus will gain Israels trust, that is Satan's MASTER PLAN after all. Satan is going to use this Radical Muslim Problem to GAIN CRED for his man, you mark my words. 

5. All the Islam Nations in the world could combine, and they couldn't conquer anybody, not even a FLEA in a real War. Sure they blow people up but Israel defeated all the Arab nations by themselves a couple of times. It just a fantasy. And no Muslim will be given the Power this DICTATOR is going to Achieve, he is going to GAIN CRED by Destroying Radical Islam, the people of Europe will finally rise up against these Crazy Muslims, and they will elect this FAR LEFT ATHEIST.....Mark my words.

6. What is the Prevailing World Religion at this moment of the ELITES? When the Church is Raptured, what will the United States look like? LIBERALS GALORE, FREAKS, DOPE HEADS, God haters, Green worshipers etc. etc. This whole world will be a Liberal Bastion once the Church is Departed/Raptured. They are all angling now for a One World Government.The Environmentalists, the Homosexual advocates, the Elitists, etc. etc. etc. They all hate Religion in reality man, they hate Christianity, they will all detest Islam by this time. These Elites don't want Religions around. Look around you, the Dem Party will be the types that will be leading this One World Government. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Revelation Man

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Jerusalem is not attacked, the Earthquake where Jesus lands on the Mt. of Olives is what causes the damage to Jerusalem, probably killing many of the Anti-Christs henchmen who run the city.

 

Zechariah 14  Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

 

[Keras]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

Zechariah 14  Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

This prophecy is about the conquest of God's holy people, who will be living in all of the holy Land in the last days. Proved by the first word of Zechariah 14:3 = THEN, the Lord will go out to fight....as per Rev 19:17-21.  We see them in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 and the half who 'go into exile' are the 'woman' of Rev 12:6-16, but the ones who remain are those in verse 17. These two groups of Christians are also mentioned in Daniel 11:32. 

Re the argument about a pre, mid or post rapture to heaven, this issue is one of Satan's most successful deceptions.  It has been argued about for over 100 years; still no consensus; why? Because the whole idea is false, we humans never go to heaven, Jesus said so, John 3:1, John 8:21-23  Our destiny is to be the people God has never yet had in His Land; His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10 and His light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8  We will continue to be tested, as the prophesies tell.