Paradigm shift in Christian thinking over 2000 years

[Retrobyter]

47 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I'm a little confused. The op starts out saying meanings have changed and presents a graphic with a specific list yet it then proceeds to discuss meaning changes of words that aren't on the original list under the auspices of the basic six. 

 

Tell me first how the meaning of "angel" has changed.

Tell me how the meaning of "salvation" has changed. 

 

Let's start with those two. 

Shalom, Josheb.

Yes, things have been ... well ... distracted for a WHILE.

The word "angel" simply means a "messenger." Some know that, but in CONVERSATION, if one used the word "angel" what is the FIRST thing that one thinks about when the word is used? Wouldn't it be a "supernatural being that serves God?" And yet, only CONTEXT would determine that usage!

This is an ENTRENCHED usage that's been worn into the fabric of conversations for CENTURIES! However, the English word "angel" is simply a TRANSLITERATION of the Greek word "aggelos," and it shouldn't have any different meaning than does "aggelos!" (But, it does.)

---

Today, the word "salvation" is used for the process in a person being "saved from sin." HOWEVER, that was NOT its original usage! Even in ENGLISH, we have migrated from its original meaning! It means the process of "RESCUING" an individual, as in "SAVING a person's LIFE!"

In the Bible, the word for beginning a new Father-son relationship with God the Father is JUSTIFICATION. And, because there's such a thing in trying to "justify oneself," we qualify this JUSTIFICATION with "BY GOD." A person must be JUSTIFIED BY GOD to have such a quality Father-son relationship with God the Father. When one is so justified, then God has removed the barrier of sin between the perfectly righteous God and the sinful person. God has DECLARED the individual "righteous" through a exchange of position; God places the sin of the individual upon His Son Yeshua` the Messiah of God and placing the righteousness of God in His Son Yeshua` upon the individual. This is made possible because of the sinless nature of His Son Yeshua` who was sacrificed upon the cross. His death - unwarranted by sin - satisfied the law of sin and death for any individual who would humbly come to God, ask for His forgiveness for sin and plead for His mercy. God will give that individual not only His mercy but also His love and grace, and the individual would be born again into God's family! 

The noun "salvation" in prophecy, as well as its verbal forms of "saved" and "saving," refers instead to the "RESCUE OF GOD'S PEOPLE, THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL." This is not only promised in the Tanakh (the "Old Testament"), but it is also repeated and promised in the B'rit haChadashah (the New Covenant or the "New Testament"). This is CLEARLY SEEN in the prophecy made about Yeshua` by the messenger Gavri'el ("Gabriel") to Miryam ("Mary"):

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called 'the Son of the Highest': and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Micah 5:1-15 (KJV)

1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet OUT OF THEE SHALL HE COME FORTH UNTO ME THAT IS TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus SHALL HE DELIVER US from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
9 Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.
10 "And it shall come to pass in that day," saith the LORD, "that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots: 11 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strong holds: 12 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers: 13 Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands. 14 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities. 15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard."

Joel 2:18-3:21 (KJV)

18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. 
19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD SHALL BE DELIVERED: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be DELIVERANCE, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them (judge them) there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border. 7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, "I am strong."
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

So, we now use the word "salvation" incorrectly when talking about prophecy because  this passage, Joel 2:32, is quoted in Romans 10:13 but is MISAPPLIED because people don't know the history of the passage! Modern-day Gentile Christians just don't KNOW the depths of the LOVE that God has for the Children of Israel, particularly the JEWS!

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

Help me out, Roy. I can't find Koreim anywhere online.

Shalom again, Josheb.

That's because "Koreim" is my pen name (and my books haven't been published, yet). "Koreim" is Hebrew and means "Vineyard man."

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

How or why is this "paradigm shift" eschatological?

And, once more, shalom, Josheb.

It's eschatological because the underlying truths of how God will rescue His people, the children of Israel, is yet part of the future. It will happen when the Messiah Yeshua` returns in ZEAL and URGENCY to stop the attempted genocide of Israel that is planned by all of her neighbors, the wicked Islamic states that mean to "drive Israel into the sea!"

God will NOT let that happen! He SHALL intervene! He WILL intervene and send His Son, Yeshua`, the Messiah of God, back to prevent their annihilation!

Christians today, who are primarily Gentiles with other goals in mind for "the spread of the Gospel," by and large HAVE NO CLUE as to the role that Israel plays in the Second Coming!

[Whyme]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Whyme.

That's understandable. Biblehub.com has a phone app that does quite nicely. When you go into single-verse view (where you can select other versions of the Bible), one of the choices is to see Hebrew or Greek, depending on whether it's an OT verse or a NT verse. It's pretty good. I use it when I'm at work and there's a lull in the workload.

Just go into your App Store and type in "biblehub" in the search line. If it makes suggestions for you, it will pop up "BibleHub.com app" as one of the selections below. There's also an offline BibleHub program. So far, it's a free app that has access to Greek and Hebrew.

I checked out biblehub. It uses the Greek alphabet and although I learned it years ago I forget. I also went to scriptue4all but couldn't get it to work. I need my old lady to help me. She knows how to work this phone. Maybe later I can search the scriptures for agape.

[Whyme]

Luke 11:43 says the pharasees that Jesus was rebuking had agape love for the best seats. 

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Am I then to understand the graphic in this op is one of your own invention? You designed it? You designed as an illustration of your personal view?

Shabbat shalom, Josheb.

Yep. Yep, and yep.

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

Please read through the whole post and consider its salient points before responding. The post is way to long to respond to every little point and if you do so we'll get mired in a plethora of tangents. The original request was, "Tell me how the meaning of salvation has changed (over the last 2000 years). Please keep that in mind while reading this post. My apologies for the length.

 

 

 

The problem here is that this portion of the post 1) is inordinately couched in the OT and 2) doesn't included some very important later NT passages that increasingly and better inform our understanding of the Joel, Micah, and Luke passages. 

 

For example, In Acts 2, Peter speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost tells us in no uncertain terms that when God oathed to David a future descendant on his throne David was speaking of the resurrection!!! That is what the text actually states! Peter explains the Davidic promise; he explains the prophesies concerning the Davidic throne. It turns out God was not talking about an actual physical throne in which someone sits here on earth. That is how many people read the OT promises but 1) that is not what the scriptures as a whole actually teach and 2) that is NOT how the first century Church viewed it. It is the futurist view that is the modern paradigm shift. That very same Peter quotes Joel 2 and explicitly states the Joel prophesy is coming true right then and there. In other words, Acts 2 renders Joel 2, 1 Sam. 8, 2 Sam. 7, and a host of other OT passages explicitly and implicitly referenced in the Pentecost sermon. 

The New Testament is filled with other examples and anyone - including you or me - who neglects or ignores those passages is never going to correctly understand the OT. 

 

So what I am reading is you asserting a paradigm shift in protests of paradigm shifts. 

 

This is very important. It's not simply or solely a problem with the details or a problem of interpretation. The problem here is presuppositional. That's why I asked for evidence of change. Fundamentally, one of the facts of scripture is this: much if not most of what Jesus taught was not new. Nearly everything he taught can be found elsewhere already stated in the Old Testament BUT... what Jesus taught was the original and true meaning of what was originally stated and what he taught was rarely what the Judaism of his day taught. This is important because, as I have already mentioned in a previous post, Judaism cannot in all ways be relied upon to inform Christianity. Judaism as taught by the rabbis got a whole bunch of things wrong!!! 

An obvious, undeniable, clearly observable example of this is the "eye for and eye." In Jesus' day that had become a justification for retributional justice but anyone who reads Exodus 21 or Leviticus 24 (if I remember the chapters correctly) recognizes the original passages were about equality of justice, not retribution. 

Jesus corrected Judaism. 

And anyone in modernity who hasn't bothered to mine those distinction is likely building on error. 

Another example is Hellenism. This is less obvious and a person has to have some knowledge of Hellenism's influence on Judaism otherwise they'll miss the misguided Judaism. John, in particular, repudiates this Hellenism. Many don't know that the preamble to John's gospel is taken from Philo the Jewish Hellenist philosopher. John is implicitly repudiating Hellenist Judaism when he writes the logos was with God in the beginning and was God. But you'd have to know Philo to know that. 

 

The first century Jews and the first century Christians knew it. 

 

Yes, I will wholeheartedly agree with the premise: not all mentions of "salvation" are identical and care should be made no to conflate them all. This is particularly germane to this conversation because one of the most common areas that conflation occurs is in the failure to correctly discriminate between temporal salvation, soteriological salvation and eschatological salvation. The problem as I read it in the posts I have received is this: you've already committed the very problem you seek to address because you've already bought into a modern eschatology that inherently conflates soteriological and eschatological salvation - a set of views not held by the first century Christian. It might have been held, in small ways or large by Jews but the theology of the Jews was often corrupt; it is not automatically a sound basis for understanding what Jesus or the NT writers taught and if a person has not correctly mined Judaism so as to weed out the errors from the sound views they are going to end up with incorrect conclusions. 

 

And I can provide a plethora of scripture showing there is a salvation from sin spoken of throughout the whole of scripture from beginning to end. So I am a little surprised and astonished the "rescue" is viewed as the rescue from one's own life at the expense of rescue from sin. That, unless explained, is logically a false dichotomy and evidence of poor exegesis. I say that reluctantly because I know you have exegetical skills better than many here and you do in clear conscience endeavor to do it well. I may have some of these verses wrong because I'm not taking the time to look them up but Luke 1:77, Heb. 9:28, Eph. 1:7, Acts 4:12, and 1 Pet. 1:9 all either explicitly or implicitly speaking a soteriology of sin and not only that of either eschatology or temporal conditions. 

And - again - the first century Christian knew that. To say otherwise is a modern difference, not a reflection of the first century Christian's knowledge and understanding. 

So, while you have clearly done a much, much better job proving some change in meaning regarding the meaning of salvation, - and I say this next sentence with respectful intent - it appears you've fallen prey to a paradigm shift even as you desire to argue for a return to an original understanding of the terms listed in the op. In this particular case this is most evident in the fact you've included "salvation" as eschatological (even though it is a rescue of one's life). 

Of the five most prominent eschatological paradigms  common in modernity there is only one that shares the presuppositions asserted in your posts and it is an invention of modernity, not something shared by the OT Jew, the first century Jew, nor the first century Christian and if I have a choice between any of those three groups and the modern eschatology that shares your presuppositions then I am stick with the first century Christians. 

 

In closing I want you to notice something about your own posts. The op is written in the context of Christ, the Church, and Christianity but the ensuing posts are almost all about Judaism and thereby NOT actually about Christ, the Church, and Christianity. You're good at examining the Hebrew but there's a series of fundamental errors committed by an over-reliance on the Hebrew and Judaism. I have spoken to you before about this. I have recommended you read D. A. Carson's book "Exegetical Fallacies" to better understand this problem. This op specifically asserts changes "through the last 2000 years" and that implicitly limits the discussion to a timeframe from the gospels until now  and it is that timeframe about which I have asked when I asked what I asked. 

What I have received is a lot of Jewishness. Very little Christianity. That's a problem, Retro. Again, I mean this next comment with respect: you this sort of thing a lot. It is your thing. Anyone reading any set of posts bearing your handle already knows before they start reading they are going to be reading some exposition of Hebrew and an emphasis on Judaic roots. The problem with that approach is 1) the Jews were often - not just occasionally - wrong, and 2) Christianity of the first century was rooted in Judaism but it not Judaism. 

 

I appreciate the time and effort put into answering my questions but the actual questions weren't actually answered. And you know my thing ; I can be very exacting. I ask specific questions with intent and expect actual answers, not mere responses, to the questions asked, not the questions not asked. 

In this case we're talking about changes in the meaning of angel and salvation. That inherently means an accurate understanding of the terms from the first century must be compared to some common meaning of the term in modernity and the latter is going to be challenging in the case of anything eschatological because the Church is much more divided and holds a much greater diversity of views than did the NT-era Church - regardless of what the Jews believed!!! 

The Jews were wrong back then much more than we are today. They are not automatically a valid eschatological source.

Shalom, Josheb.

OH, NO!!! NOT THIS AGAIN! Please stay off my topics if you're going to spew that NONSENSE all over again! Please, don't hijack my topics!

You make a HORRIFIC error when you say, "In Acts 2, Peter speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost tells us in no uncertain terms that when God oathed to David a future descendant on his throne David was speaking of the resurrection!!! That is what the text actually states! Peter explains the Davidic promise; he explains the prophesies concerning the Davidic throne. It turns out God was not talking about an actual physical throne in which someone sits here on earth. That is how many people read the OT promises but 1) that is not what the scriptures as a whole actually teach and 2) that is NOT how the first century Church viewed it. It is the futurist view that is the modern paradigm shift. That very same Peter quotes Joel 2 and explicitly states the Joel prophesy is coming true right then and there. In other words, Acts 2 renders Joel 2, 1 Sam. 8, 2 Sam. 7, and a host of other OT passages explicitly and implicitly referenced in the Pentecost sermon."

Your whole conclusion as to Kefa's inclusion of David's throne speaking about the Resurrection is RIDICULOUS! I'm just baffled that you can't see the SIMPLE mistake you make! But, just the same, THIS is the reason why you take such a weird spin on Kefa's words!

Let's look again at the passage in question, because this is FUNDAMENTAL to your arguments:

Acts 2:14-36 (KJV)

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them,

"Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 "'And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'

22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 WHOM GOD HATH RAISED UP, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him,

'"I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.'

29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would RAISE UP CHRIST to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST, that 'his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.' 32 This Jesus hath GOD RAISED UP, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,

'The LORD (God) said unto my Lord (my Sire; my Father), "Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."'

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord (Master) and Christ (Messiah, the One ANOINTED to be King)!"

 

The MEANS to the end is what we are hearing in Kefa's words! Verse 31 is SPECIFICALLY talking about the words "RAISE UP" in verse 30! The words "RAISE UP" refer to the "RESURRECTION!" He was NOT saying that "the Messiah sitting on His throne" referred to the "Resurrection!" That's just GOOFY!

That thought, "'RAISE UP' refers to the 'RESURRECTION,'" is the MEANS by which the END, namely, "the Messiah sitting upon David's throne, ruling and reigning over the children of Israel," is achieved! Kefa understood this! He was saying that the Messiah would have to be ALIVE to REIGN!

However, God, through His prophets and through His messengers ("aggeloi"), did indeed mean that Yeshua` would PHYSICALLY REIGN OVER THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL ON THIS EARTH! (Read it again:)

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

This is LITERAL! It takes a warped mind to twist this into an allegorical interpretation!

Edited February 28, 2021 by Retrobyter
to highlight another instance of "raise up"

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Whyme said:

Luke 11:43 says the pharasees that Jesus was rebuking had agape love for the best seats. 

Shalom, Whyme.

VERY GOOD! Yes, you're absolutely correct! The word "agapee" can also mean "to take pleasure in," and that's PRECISELY what the Pharisees were doing; they were taking pleasure in the best seats!

So, are you saying that the specific definition that people try to attach to "agapee" is incorrect?

[Whyme]

Just now, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Whyme.

VERY GOOD! Yes, you're absolutely correct! The word "agapee" can also mean "to take pleasure in," and that's PRECISELY what the Pharisees were doing; they were taking pleasure in the best seats!

So, are you saying that the specific definition that people try to attach to "agapee" is incorrect?

Well if agape is godly love as people say, then why did the godless pharasees have that kind of love? Also God loves the son with phileo love not just agape. Sorry if i pronounce phileo incorrectly but you prolly get what I'm saying.

[Retrobyter]

Just now, Whyme said:

Well if agape is godly love as people say, then why did the godless pharasees have that kind of love? Also God loves the son with phileo love not just agape. Sorry if i pronounce phileo incorrectly but you prolly get what I'm saying.

Shalom, again, Whyme.

I'm not worried about a pronunciation of a Greek word.

That's very interesting. And, yes, you're right. If they define "agapee" as "godly love," then they do indeed have a problem with that verse. Thus, it's not the text or the translation of the Greek, but the READER'S INTERPRETATION with such a definition in mind that's in error.

You're also right about "fileoo" ("phileo") being used for God loving the Son in John 5:20. The word is also used for God loving us, as well, in John 16:27. This word can mean "to have affection for" and even "to kiss!"

I've said this before, but if one attaches too much to the definition of a word, one sets a snare for himself in other passages of Scripture. That's why I try to limit my definitions for certain words to their etymologies.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention!