2 Thessalonians 2:6-7

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Which part? 

That it is a lie.  One may argue that the position doesn't have as much support from scripture as some other positions, but not that it is a lie.  That saying it is a lie is stating emphatically that anyone who comes to that conclusion is intentionally and maliciously trying to deceive.  They may be in error, but that is not on the same level as lying.  

The very fact that you choose that particular approach to discounting the position speaks more to the quality of your character, or rather lack thereof.  

I, for one, have no problem stating when I think someone is in error, but I have no definitive proof that they are intentionally and maliciously trying to decieve and are lying.  Only the Father can know what is their motivation and what is in their heart.  And that is not your job description or pay grade.

Edited October 16, 2017 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

While it is definitely outside of anything scriptural, it is fascinating in another way how the Evil One has gone to great lengths to explain away a pre-trib removal of the righteous.  Yes, that is the case.  Take a look at many of the works of so-called channelers that claim that alien entities speak thru them.  They have written a lot of stuff on how many of who's vibrations will not mesh with a new world structure will be removed by craft that will swoop in close and remove them "in the twinkling of an eye".  Now isn't that fascinating?  Wonder where they got that phrase from?  (sarcasm).

As you watch this, keep in mind.... the Evil One has not wasted any time explaining away a mid or post trib rapture.  Only a pre-trib rapture.   Now why would that be?  

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by OneLight
Video's are to be placed in the video forum, no place else. Video removed.

[Daniel 11:36]

"Pre trib is a good example of this. It removes all the fear. And it's a lie"

 

This one

[WilliamL]

On 9/2/2017 at 3:19 AM, Diaste said:

For many years I heard the above passage referred to the Holy Spirit or Micheal the Archangel, depending on the author. I believe I have heard it's a reference to the Church as well. Obviously the idea is that either the HS, Micheal, or the Church, is removed from the scene and then the beast is revealed to do his evil work.

Recently, maybe not so recently, a Pastor has said this actually means the revealing of the beast is withholding the return of Jesus. As in, Jesus will only return after the two events of 2 Thess 2:3. The idea just came to my attention and I would like to say it has merit.

A short investigation certainly seems to confirm the accuracy of this idea.

Actually, one fairly common view of the Ante-Nicence Fathers was that Paul was obliquely referring here to the Roman Empire, the 4th Beast of Daniel 7. This world-ruling power would/will not allow anyone claiming divine authority to arise and overrule its authority. "Obliquely," because Paul could have been accused of treason for stating outright that Romanism would "be taken out of the way."

Rev.  17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is [i.e., the Roman Empire], and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 8 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

When the sixth head/Romanism fails, the Son of Perdition will arise "for a short time." He will be destroyed when the Lord comes (2 Thes. 2:8), at the Rapture. Subsequent to this, the 8th Head = Rev. 11, 13, 17's Beast Kingdom will arise.

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by WilliamL

[Diaste]

12 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Actually, one fairly common view of the Ante-Nicence  Fathers was that Paul was obliquely referring here to the Roman Empire, the 4th Beast of Daniel 7. This world-ruling power would/will not allow anyone claiming divine authority to arise and overrule its authority. "Obliquely," because Paul could have been accused of treason for stating outright that Romanism would "be taken out of the way."

Rev.  17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is [i.e., the Roman Empire], and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 8 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

When the sixth head/Romanism fails, the Son of Perdition will arise "for a short time." He will be destroyed when the Lord comes (2 Thes. 2:8), at the Rapture. Subsequent to this, the 8th Head = Rev. 11, 13, 17's Beast Kingdom will arise.

 

I'm actually  serious about this question. I dont see you as being serious when you bring up the musings of proto-catholicism. 

[Diaste]

On 10/15/2017 at 9:52 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Pre trib is a good example of this. It removes all the fear. And it's a lie"

 

This one

I see. Well since pretrib has no scriptural backing and is promoted as truth, it is a lie. Or false prophecy. Either way.....

 

[Diaste]

On 10/15/2017 at 6:20 PM, OldCoot said:

That it is a lie.  One may argue that the position doesn't have as much support from scripture as some other positions, but not that it is a lie.  That saying it is a lie is stating emphatically that anyone who comes to that conclusion is intentionally and maliciously trying to deceive.  They may be in error, but that is not on the same level as lying.  

The very fact that you choose that particular approach to discounting the position speaks more to the quality of your character, or rather lack thereof.  

I, for one, have no problem stating when I think someone is in error, but I have no definitive proof that they are intentionally and maliciously trying to decieve and are lying.  Only the Father can know what is their motivation and what is in their heart.  And that is not your job description or pay grade.

Please....when a thing is said that isn't the truth what is it called?  I could see it being an error if it was a one time thing or a current fad, but pretrib has been promoted with a thousand books and hundreds of authors for over 150 years. That is not an error. It's an agenda. Insidious. Destructive. Blasphemous. The idea of Pre Trib is nothing more than a deception straight from the father of lies.

And you are correct, it does speak to character but it isn't for want.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I'm actually  serious about this question. I dont see you as being serious when you bring up the musings of proto-catholicism. 

I'm serious as a heart attack. Early church elders such as Tertullian and Hippolytus were a lot closer to the time of Paul than you or I, as well as much more knowledgeable about the consequences for lack of circumspection in writing about the Empire and Emperor. Of course, Paul was beheaded by said empire for his teachings anyway.

The scuttlebutt of the time was that when he wrote "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time," that which restrained was the ruling power of the time, which ruling power Paul was obliquely prophesying would collapse. Whereas, in contrast, anyone advocating "prot0-Catholocism" would been a defender of the Empire, as the Roman Church came to be.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

When the sixth head/Romanism fails, the Son of Perdition will arise "for a short time." He will be destroyed when the Lord comes (2 Thes. 2:8), at the Rapture.

I take this to be the time prophesied in Daniel 11-12:

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land [Israel]... 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas at  the glorious holy mountain [= the Abomination of Desolation and 2 Thes. 2:4]; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time [= the Great Tribulation]: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...  [= the resurrection of the dead just prior to the Rapture].

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

this actually means the revealing of the beast is withholding the return of Jesus.

By this I presume that you are presuming that the Beast = the Son of Perdition. For which you did not provide a lick of prophetic scriptural evidence.

Edit note: the quote just above was actually from Diaste's original post, and the quote above that was actually from my original post.

Edited October 17, 2017 by WilliamL

[Diaste]

 

 

On 10/15/2017 at 9:08 PM, OldCoot said:

While it is definitely outside of anything scriptural, it is fascinating in another way how the Evil One has gone to great lengths to explain away a pre-trib removal of the righteous.  Yes, that is the case.  Take a look at many of the works of so-called channelers that claim that alien entities speak thru them.  They have written a lot of stuff on how many of who's vibrations will not mesh with a new world structure will be removed by craft that will swoop in close and remove them "in the twinkling of an eye".  Now isn't that fascinating?  Wonder where they got that phrase from?  (sarcasm).

As you watch this, keep in mind.... the Evil One has not wasted any time explaining away a mid or post trib rapture.  Only a pre-trib rapture.   Now why would that be?  

 

It's all part of the same deception. To wit: Satan starts the pre trib lie. Promotes it as gospel truth. Induces some people to give the idea scriptural credence and lend support through upstanding preachers and many pious and clever authors. Both Satan and i know there is nothing that will entrench an idea more than a good crisis, stiff opposition, or in this case, a timely misappropriation. Now you have new agers using the idea but with an alien origin. Not only that but these same pawns of Satan appropriate the earthly upheavals that signal the time of the end. 

Far from discrediting the pre trib rapture the actions of the new agers serve to cement the idea of the pretrib rapture in the hearts and minds of those so predisposed. 

Believers only see it as proof positive of the pre trib rapture because, "How dare these new agers use the scriptures for their own ends? They are blaspheming God and His great hope!" And so pre trib is not denigrated but promoted.

[simplejeff]

footnote: for consideration seeking truth:

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

⁶ And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. ⁷ 

 

For already

this separating from Torah is at work secretly,

 

but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth^[a] and destroy by the glory of his coming.