Statement of Faith Based on the Truth of Scripture - Please Read

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, OneLight said:

8thdaypriest,

Sister, it seems you are not even taking the time to even look at why I post those verses for you to consider.  All I see is you moving from one verse to another with the idea to disprove how I see scripture and show that I am wrong, which can surely be seen in your reply about the Anti-Christ, assuming that I am trying to somehow call you an anti-christ.  I am not.  There is no need for you to be so defensive.  I gave them to you so you can see how they fit into scripture as scripture does not contradict itself.  They are for your contemplation, not for a series of debates.  I am only showing how the Holy Spirit is God.  Perhaps this simple graphic will explain better.

One Light,

I have seen this diagram many times.  I just do not believe this way.  I believe that God our Father IS the Holy Spirit.  So I cannot put "Is NOT" between The Father and The Holy Spirit.   So yes of course - The Holy Spirit IS God.   I do not believe that "God" is ONE being who manifests in three ways or exists as three persons, or however you put it.  I believe there are ONLY TWO DIVINE BEINGS.  God - the Father AND His divine only begotten Son.  The Son IS also "God" because He was begotten from His Father. 

Luke 20:42 "Now David himself said in the Book of Psalms:`The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, (Luk 20:42 NKJ)

Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." (NKJ)

Here God the Father speaks to His Son calling Him "God".  Yet - The "God" who speaks is called "Your God" by the writer David.  Meaning that the God who anoints is the God of the one being anointed.  At the baptism, God the Father anointed Jesus with His Spirit in the form of a dove.   Only kings and priests were anointed during the OT.  They were anointed with oil, which represented the Holy Spirit.  At the baptism, rather than oil, God the Father made His Spirit visible, in the form of a dove. 

The anointing was called the "seal" of office for kings and priests.  It meant that God had chosen them.  You remember that Samuel anointed both Saul and David.  

 John 6:27 [Jesus speaking] "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

[8thdaypriest]

One Light,

You believe very strongly in your interpretation of the Scriptures concerning the nature of God.  I also believe very strongly.  That is why our debate should be a good one, and provide much evidence and food for thought for those who come here.  If you were not so strong in your beliefs then our debate would bring much less to the table.  It is good that we are both strong and knowledgeable.  I just hope that we can discuss respectfully.  I will pray about that - for both of us. 

Over the years, I have learned new things in the course of forum debates.  Things I had never "seen" before.   That is always very very good.  

In formatting replies to posters I have found ways to strengthen my arguments.  That is also good. 

You say that I do not read your posts.  But I do.   Do you read the verses that I post?  And really think about them?

I am almost 70.  I am retired now.  My husband and I live on a 10 acre homestead in East Texas, near a small town.  I have been an avid student of the Word for some 40 years now.  Jesus is very real to me.  

Someone asked if I am quoting from a website.  Yes.  Some of the time.  I also use Bible Works 10.  I am just getting used to it.  I had version 8 for many years.  I have found that Version 10 leaves out many verses that contain my search words.  I think I will start notifying them about that.   I always have several translations open to compare, but I mostly use the NKJV.  I like the NET, but they have so many reference numbers in the text that it takes too much time to delete them all from my post.

[8thdaypriest]

7 hours ago, OneLight said:

8thdaypriest,

Sister, it seems you are not even taking the time to even look at why I post those verses for you to consider.  All I see is you moving from one verse to another with the idea to disprove how I see scripture and show that I am wrong, which can surely be seen in your reply about the Anti-Christ, assuming that I am trying to somehow call you an anti-christ.  I am not.  There is no need for you to be so defensive.  I gave them to you so you can see how they fit into scripture as scripture does not contradict itself.  They are for your contemplation, not for a series of debates.  I am only showing how the Holy Spirit is God.  Perhaps this simple graphic will explain better.

Let me try from another angle.  Who was Jesus "Father". 

Matthew 1:18,20,23  Mary was His human mother and God was His divine Father.

    Luke 1:35 “And the angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.’”

John 1:14  “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of  the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

    2 John 1:3 “Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.”

        The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, and the child born to her was called “the only begotten of the Father” and “the Son of the Father. 

It seems very simple.  The Holy Spirit IS the divine Being whom Jesus called “Father”.  God the Father appears sitting on a throne, while His spirit presence pervades the Universe.

When Jesus refers to "My Father" - is He not speaking of The Holy Spirit? 

Jesus said,  "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.  "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. " (John 4:23-24 NKJ)

We worship "Him" -- "the Father" who "is Spirit".   If the Father were not Spirit, then He could not be with Christ and in Christ, while yet being invisible. 

[Guest shiloh357]

15 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe Jesus DID claim to be a separate being from God His Father. 

“Not My will but Thine be done,” Jesus prayed (Luke 22:42).  

“I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me” (John 6:38).

    John 8:42 “Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.’”

John 12:49 “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”

        Do these verses speak of two beings, or three - two separate wills, or three?

 

Matthew 20:23  to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father" (NKJ)

John 4:34 “Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me . . .’”

John 5:30 “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”

    John 6:38-39 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

I could quote several more, but you get the idea.  There were TWO SEPARATE WILLS in operation.  Jesus' will AND the Father's will.  For TWO wills to operate, there must be TWO separate persons (beings). 

No, they are two separate Persons, but not two separate beings.   If they were separate beings, we would have two gods.   Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are one being (God), but are each separate Persons in the Godhead.
 

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Jesus said He came to do the will of His God and Father. 

John 20:17 “Jesus said to her, ‘Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go  to My brethren and say to them,  I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

All these were written long AFTER Jesus returned to heaven.  Paul is STILL calling the Father, "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ". 

    Romans 15:6  “ ... that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

2 Corinthians 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,”

2 Corinthians 11:31 “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.”

Ephesians 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,”

    Ephesians 1:17 “ ... that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,”

Colossians 1:3 “We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,”

 

And here is the glorified Christ speaking - many years AFTER He ascended into Heaven. 

Revelation 3:12 “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.”

So - If the glorified Christ looks upon His Father as His God - that is TWO DIVINE BEINGS - Father and Son. 

 

 

 

No, you are simply not theologically equipped to understand the relationship of Jesus' sinless humanity to His deity.  God the Father is the God of Jesus' Humanity.    But Jesus is equally God and co-eternal with the Father.  John 1:1 states that Jesus was with God and IS God.   Jesus and the Father are one and the same God, but not one and the same Person.
 

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So you're saying that Jesus was NOT a "Son of Man".  That would mean He was NOT "come in the flesh".  And that teaching is called antichrist .  Are you sure you don't want to change that  part? 

 

No, what I am saying is that "Son of Man" is a Messianic title.  Jesus appropriated that title from Dan. 7: 13.   It is a title, not a reference to His incarnation.

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The references you sited about the word "son" having "nothing to do with being the offspring of someone" - those references do not anywhere use the term "begotten" or "only begotten".   Jesus is called God's "only begotten son" - not just "a son". 

I was answering your usage of the word "son" as referring to offspring.  That particular line of argumentation was not addressing the issue of begotten.

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John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (NKJ)

John 1:18  [Christ speaking] No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (NKJ)

John 3:16 [Christ speaking] "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (NKJ)

Matthew 3:17  [Father speaks] And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (NKJ)

Matthew 17:5 [Father speaks] While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I  am well pleased. Hear Him!" (NKJ)

 

Jesus was begotten by God through Mary.  It's really that simple.   You are trying to foist a blasphemous false doctrine that states that Jesus was begotten some time in the eternal past before His incarnation.   Sorry, but we are not dumb enough to buy into that clap-trap.

[OneLight]

21 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

One Light,

I have seen this diagram many times.  I just do not believe this way.  I believe that God our Father IS the Holy Spirit.  So I cannot put "Is NOT" between The Father and The Holy Spirit.   So yes of course - The Holy Spirit IS God.   I do not believe that "God" is ONE being who manifests in three ways or exists as three persons, or however you put it.  I believe there are ONLY TWO DIVINE BEINGS.  God - the Father AND His divine only begotten Son.  The Son IS also "God" because He was begotten from His Father. 

Luke 20:42 "Now David himself said in the Book of Psalms:`The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, (Luk 20:42 NKJ)

Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." (NKJ)

Here God the Father speaks to His Son calling Him "God".  Yet - The "God" who speaks is called "Your God" by the writer David.  Meaning that the God who anoints is the God of the one being anointed.  At the baptism, God the Father anointed Jesus with His Spirit in the form of a dove.   Only kings and priests were anointed during the OT.  They were anointed with oil, which represented the Holy Spirit.  At the baptism, rather than oil, God the Father made His Spirit visible, in the form of a dove. 

The anointing was called the "seal" of office for kings and priests.  It meant that God had chosen them.  You remember that Samuel anointed both Saul and David.  

 John 6:27 [Jesus speaking] "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

You will find that many disagree with your interpretation and application.  Genesis 1 clearly states the Three being separate.  Nobody is rejecting that the Father set His seal on His Son, Jesus.

We read in scripture many times that the Holy Spirit is referred to as He, setting Him as His own entity. We read Father, Son and Holy Spirit more than once.  Why do you think the Father would divide Himself in such a way if in fact the Holy Spirit is just another name for the Father? 

Just one of many examples is found in 1 Corinthians 12:11

1. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Why would the Father cause confusion is such a manner?  Why would the Father not just come out and say "But the Father works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills."  The Father did not because the Holy Spirit is His own entity.

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, you are simply not theologically equipped to understand the relationship of Jesus' sinless humanity to His deity. 

Thank you for continuing to dialog shiloh357.  

Is not the comment in red somewhat "personal"?  How would you know how "theologically equipped" I am?  How would you know what degrees I hold?  And why would it matter what official degrees a person holds, if Christ is leading?  Saul was VERY educated, yet he was ignorant (by his own admission).  He held the majority view, within His culture, yet he was wrong and he was persecuting those who held a different view. 

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, they are two separate Persons, but not two separate beings.   If they were separate beings, we would have two gods.   Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are one being (God), but are each separate Persons in the Godhead.

This - to me - is very confusing.  To say that 1 being (singular) is 3 persons.  Are there Scripture passages which use the terms "being" and "person" differently?  Is the definition of "being" different from that of "person"?   Or does it end - as usual - with "we cannot understand these things", thus ending all discussion. 

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

21 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Let me try from another angle.  Who was Jesus "Father". 

Matthew 1:18,20,23  Mary was His human mother and God was His divine Father.

    Luke 1:35 “And the angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.’”

John 1:14  “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of  the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

    2 John 1:3 “Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.”

        The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, and the child born to her was called “the only begotten of the Father” and “the Son of the Father. 

It seems very simple.  The Holy Spirit IS the divine Being whom Jesus called “Father”.  God the Father appears sitting on a throne, while His spirit presence pervades the Universe.

When Jesus refers to "My Father" - is He not speaking of The Holy Spirit? 

Jesus said,  "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.  "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. " (John 4:23-24 NKJ)

We worship "Him" -- "the Father" who "is Spirit".   If the Father were not Spirit, then He could not be with Christ and in Christ, while yet being invisible. 

No, because at Jesus' baptism, the Father spoke, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove. The Father is ALWAYS mentioned as separate from both the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This - to me - is very confusing.  To say that 1 being (singular) is 3 persons.  Are there Scripture passages which use the terms "being" and "person" differently?  Is the definition of "being" different from that of "person"?   Or does it end - as usual - with "we cannot understand these things", thus ending all discussion. 

 

 

God is beyond our understanding. He is unfathomable.  The Trinity is demonstrated in the NT, but it is not explained.  All three, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God. They are the same God, but three persons.   There is no analogy in our human experience, in this realm of reality to which we are bound that would serve as an adequate explanation.   It is just an inexplicable to us (at this time) as how God can be without beginning and end.  There will come a time in eternity when we will understand, I expect.  But for now, we need to be content with the truth that there are things about God that are a mystery to us.

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Thank you for continuing to dialog shiloh357.  

Is not the comment in red somewhat "personal"?  How would you know how "theologically equipped" I am? 

I can tell by your misuse of Scripture and the theological claims you make.

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How would you know what degrees I hold?

I hold theological degrees and I can attest from what I have seen in the theological world that degrees can be as useless as a screen door on a submarine.

 

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And why would it matter what official degrees a person holds, if Christ is leading?

Christ is not leading in anything YOU are posting here, I can tell you that.

 

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  Saul was VERY educated, yet he was ignorant (by his own admission).  He held the majority view, within His culture, yet he was wrong and he was persecuting those who held a different view. 

Which only strengthens my point.

[visitor#88]

On 9/20/2017 at 1:33 PM, Willa said:

I hope you don't trim the corners of your beard, and that you have a fence around the top of your house.    I hope you put to death rape victims who had a knife to their throats and failed to call out.  You keep every jot and tittle of the law?  We would be arrested.

Thats not what he is saying, nor is he law enforcement(that I know of since you put a hypothetical situation out there regarding rape victims). Love conquers ALL. I'm not sure what a beard has to do with Love...Matter of fact, what do you mean put a rape victim to death??? That sure looks like a perversion of gospel.