10 myths of calvanism

[Robert William]

7 hours ago, Jude1:3 said:

John Calvin was a heretic and a horrible human being. 

Stop relying on fallible humans and study the inspired Canon of 66 books. Please measure everything you read or hear with scripture.

[Robert William]

Dr. Robert A. Morey who has a degree in Islamic studies has a very realistic teaching on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Morey_(pastor)

[Robert William]

1 hour ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Your reply did not deal with what the person said.  You often completely fail to answer questions that put your Calvinism in a bad light.

John Calvin had people burned at the stake.  By most accounts, around 58 people.  He had over 70 other people exiled from Geneva.  Can you explain to me why a Christian preacher would have people burned at the stake, and where, exactly, we find this doctrine in the New Testament?

I am also still waiting for you to explain how God can consign people to hell when they have no free will and, therefore, cannot be held accountable for their sins.

That was the apostate Romanite Religion.

[Robert William]

30 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

You can't use that easy-out.  The RCC has nothing to do with it.

When Calvin developed his own special theology, he was not a Catholic.  You are a Calvinist.  Calvin created your theology.  He also had people killed because they did not believe the same way he did.  So your theology was invented by a man who had people murdered.  Can you explain to me why this is acceptable?  Can you explain where we find this concept in the New Testament?  These are simple questions.  Surely you have an answer for them that actually explains them instead of a meaningless dismissive such as the one quoted above which attempts to completely skirt the issue.

I reject Calvin's murderous beliefs, I ONLY agree with scripture.

[missmuffet]

I do not support Calvinism.

[Robert William]

16 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

The RCC didn't burn Michael Servetus at the stake; Calvin did.

Calvin wrote the following to William Farel in a letter dated Aug 20th 1553 CE when he has Servetus arrested:

(Calvin to William Farel, August 20, 1553, Jules Bonnet, Letters of John Calvin, Carlisle, Penn: Banner of Truth Trust 1980. ISBN 0-85151-323-9. )

 

And if you have doubts about Calvin's influence or intent, then let me present an excerpt from Calvin's  1561  to the Marquis Paet, high chamberlain to the King of Navarre:

(Calvin to William Farel, August 20, 1553, Jules Bonnet, Letters of John Calvin, Carlisle, Penn: Banner of Truth Trust 1980. ISBN 0-85151-323-9. )

For further reading, should you wish to pursue it:

https://archive.org/stream/lettersofjohncal04calvuoft/lettersofjohncal04calvuoft_djvu.txt

 

That said: Scripture says this about murderers:

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8, NASB, emphasis mine)

Then you must reject any notion that man is "predestined", as Scripture says this:

" "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" (Matthew 25:41, NASB, emphasis mine)

As I have mentioned in previous posts: if God chose people to be damned ahead of time, then He would have said  in Scripture that Hell had also been prepared for them as well. Since the Lord isn't forgetful or absent-minded, the fact that He states only "the Devil and His angels" here indicates that Hell wasn't originally created for man.

"Predestination" means that the destination has been chosen ahead of time; you cannot "predestine" someone to a place meant for someone else unless it was your intention for them to go there as well to begin with.

What are we then left with?  That man, after the fall at the Garden, was relegated to the Lake of Fire unless they accepted salvation. This means that man as a whole was not predestined, nor were any single individual.  Jesus' statement in Matthew 25:41 defeats both ideas.

And if one still believes that a person is chosen by God for Heaven or Hell, then why does the Lord repeatedly ask man to choose?

" "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15, NASB, emphasis mine)
 

"Elijah came near to all the people and said, "How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him." But the people did not answer him a word."  (1 Kings 18:21, NASB, emphasis mine)

" “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.” (Deuteronomy 30:19-20, NASB, emphasis mine)

Now, why have I not included a lot of quotes from the New Testament? Because there are too many times that Jesus says repent!  Repentance implies that we have a choice to make, much like the Old Testament tells people to "choose" God Almighty or the "gods" of the world. In fact, Jesus has this to say about those choosing and not choosing:

" “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."" (John 5:39-40, NASB, emphasis mine)

"Unwilling" indicates that they could have come to Him had they wanted to, but they didn't. "Search the Scriptures" shows that they chose to read Scripture. Repeatedly in Scripture, from the Garden of Eden to the Tribulation, we see people choosing and making choices, especially when it is clear that one chooses to trust in and cling to Jesus Christ. We are told repeatedly in Scripture to "hang onto", "cling to" and other terms that indicate that we can choose to do so or to not do so!

Even the passage that is claimed to "support predestination" does not:

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30, NASB, emphasis mine)

God knew in advance who would come to Him; and those He knew would come He did not "predestine" to come. He predestined them to be conformed to Jesus' image, much as those who join the army are predestined to go through boot camp, or those who go through an academic path are predestined to follow a specific set of classes designed to impart to them what they need. That God knew they would come does not mean that God made them come; only that those who God knew would come would be conformed to Jesus' image.

In other words: all that is prescribed ahead of time is what would happen to those who chose the Lord, NOT that they would choose the Lord.

What we end up left with then are three things:

1) God would not use an unrepentant murderer  to communicate His will

2) God would not say "for the devil and his angels" and leave mention of man out if any humans were ever intended for Hell

3) God foreknowing who would come is not the same as God making them come.

 

-Sojo414

 

Is predestination a biblical teaching?
 by Matt Slick
Yes, predestination is biblical.  Predestination is the teaching that God has, from all eternity, freely determined whatsoever shall come to pass.  We find this in Ephesians 1:11 which says, “also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.”  Notice Paul teaches that predestination occurs according to the purpose of God and that God works all things after His will.  The "all things" means exactly that, all things.
The word predestination comes from the Greek proorivzw "prooridzo."  The word occurs six times in six verses in the New Testament.
Acts 4:28, “to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.”
Romans 8:29-30, “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
1 Corinthians 2:7, “but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory.”
Ephesians 1:5, “He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.”
Ephesians 1:11, “also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.”
By looking at these verses we can see that predestination reveals God's great sovereignty and right to do with His creation as He desires.  But also we can see that predestination deals with salvation.  Unfortunately, many Christians do not accept the biblical teaching on predestination.  Many do not like the idea that God predestines people for salvation, but the fact is the Bible teaches it.
We might say that there are two main views concerning predestination.  One is the view that God has foreknowledge; that is, he knew who would choose Him and those are the ones He predestined to salvation.  The other idea is held by Calvinists who believe God Sovereignly, of His own free will, predestined certain people to be saved, and His choice is not based upon looking into the future to see who would pick Him.
Either way, predestination is found in the Bible and it is a doctrine that we must accept.  So, to find which view you think is most biblical, study the above list of verses in their context and see if you think that God predestines according to the expected future human choices or not.

[Jude1:3]

5 hours ago, Robert William said:

You are a believer in Arminianism or Pelagianism but are just to ignorant to see it.  

They were both wrong and heretical.

[Jude1:3]

Just LOL at trusting in John Calvin's opinions and book "Institutes of the Christian Religion"  over what the Bible clearly and Plainly says.

To be fair , I think Augustine was a heretic and a horrible human being also.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Jude1:3

[Littlelambseativy]

21 hours ago, Jude1:3 said:

John Calvin was a heretic and a horrible human being. 

You judge harshly. You have no idea what his relationship with Jesus was nor whether he asked for forgiveness for what he had done. Consider Paul, how God used him...I am not equating him with Paul but remember that if God chose to use him you are going against God’s servant. I know there is much hate here on the Board about Calvin but none of us is innocent of sin in God’s eyes and with what manner you judge you will be judged by God. Judging is a fearsome thing unless you have all the facts as God does. 

[Jude1:3]

11 minutes ago, Littlelambseativy said:

You judge harshly. You have no idea what his relationship with Jesus was nor whether he asked for forgiveness for what he had done. Consider Paul, how God used him...I am not equating him with Paul but remember that if God chose to use him you are going against God’s servant. I know there is much hate here on the Board about Calvin but none of us is innocent of sin in God’s eyes and with what manner you judge you will be judged by God. Judging is a fearsome thing unless you have all the facts as God does. 

 

He was a Tare. He wasn't a good man. He did these things After to professing to be a Christian not before.

..... and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.     •1 John 3:15

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk (just so you know) I'm just telling it like it is.

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Jude1:3