The Dark Side of Christianity

[DesertSW]

7 hours ago, Equippers said:

however, i have been in church for a long time, i have seen plenty of nasty behaviors between genuine born again believers.

anyway, when one type in the key words "hurt by other Christians"

there are plenty of results come up to help genuine Christians to deal with hurt by other genuine Christians

so i don't think i am alone in struggling with this issue.

Well said. Stay in a church long enough, be friends with Christians long enough, you will most likely (90% if I had to put a percentage on it) be betrayed and hurt by another Christian you loved.

Ask any pastor who has been a pastor for many years and they will tell you of the betrayals and hurt they experienced as a pastor. The church splits, the quibbling, the back-stabbing, etc. Church politics can be very nasty.

Even the Apostle Paul got into the Apostle Peter's face and things can very heated and Paul confronted Peter and had a very strong exchange with him. That couldn't have been pretty but it happened and justly so, as Peter wronged Paul and compromised him and his ministry.

 

Let me ask this: Is it Christian/Christ-like to tell another Christian that you don't love them and you actually lied all those years when you told them you  loved them?

 

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by DesertSW

[DesertSW]

11 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Well, my point equippers, is that people who have been changed by God, act like they have been changed.

 

But that DOES NOT make them perfect. They are still fallible and Christians can and do hurt other Christians. You are NOT perfect and you still possess the ability to betray another Christian. Whether you do or not, is unknown at this point, but it can happen and it does happen with other Christians.

Nobody becomes perfect and without fault once they because a born again Christian. Yes, in a spiritual sense they do (justification) but not in an earthly sense in this fallible human body. They still can and do sin.

[appy]

I have the impression about three things that is the running theme of your posts in this thread and another thread. Perfectionism, extreme bitterness towards others and the unwillingness to forgive. Paul wrote in Philippians 3 to correct the impression that folks had in that they felt that they had already attained perfection spiritually. Paul said no, for even he, himself had not attained perfection. And if he had not, neither has anyone else.

Philippians 3 : 12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

It is NOT that we have license to do wrong. Absolutely NOT. 1 John, homes in on this, with a reminder that Jesus is our advocate and if we do sin, that we can be assured that we may go to him and confess those sins, and he will cleanse us of all unrighteousness. We are a work in progress, God is not done with any of us. We learn and grow for a lifetime. Our goal is to keep pressing ahead running our race patiently all the while, getting to know God better and better and growing in his love. Perfectionism can certainly hinder our growth because it fools us into thinking all we have to do is sit back and wait for the Lord to return.

1 John 1 : 8 thru 10 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. 

1 John 2 : 1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

We all need to realize that people are still individuals and still human and that not everyone matures at the same rate or the same level. Some people have more growth than others and sometimes God prunes us back for further growth. With that said. We need to be patient with each other. All the while taking into account that it might be one of us that is in the wrong and needing help back to the right road again.

Forgiveness means that in your heart and mind, you will not harbor anger, bitterness or resentment towards the wrong doer or remain angry and upset. Or continue to hold the wrong doing against them in your heart. If you are constantly recalling the person in your heart and becoming angry and sullen and wish the person ill will in your heart every time you think of them, you haven't forgiven the person. Forgiveness is for the victims benefit NOT the wrong doer's benefit.

You can either move on with your life or remain angry and bitter. Remaining angry or bitter will eat away at you, robbing you of peace and joy. Forgiveness, means you will no longer remain angry or hold a grudge. It does not mean that the person who is abusive is escaping responsibility. It is that you are doing what God told you to do and that is that you let the wrong doer off of your hook...doesn't mean the other person is off of God's hook. God will deal with that person.

Instead pray for them to experience repentance and salvation. There's no greater blessing than a personal relationship with Jesus and this is what Jesus meant when he told us to pray for others and to bless those who curse us. Praying instead for God to bless others as he did us allows God to soften our hearts towards those who hate us or hurt us, so that we will have a Godly compassion on the lost and remove the anger and bitterness from our hearts. Forgiveness releases YOU from the pain you have experienced. But as long as you harbor resentment towards others you will never be free from it. The Lord told us to forgive others because he first forgave us our sins against him. If we are unwilling to forgive others, he is unwilling to forgive us. We need NOT to dwell in the past, but move forward into the present and future to the call of our Lord and Savior.

[Estrella]

21 hours ago, DesertSW said:

Well said. Stay in a church long enough, be friends with Christians long enough, you will most likely (90% if I had to put a percentage on it) be betrayed and hurt by another Christian you loved.

Ask any pastor who has been a pastor for many years and they will tell you of the betrayals and hurt they experienced as a pastor. The church splits, the quibbling, the back-stabbing, etc. Church politics can be very nasty.

Even the Apostle Paul got into the Apostle Peter's face and things can very heated and Paul confronted Peter and had a very strong exchange with him. That couldn't have been pretty but it happened and justly so, as Peter wronged Paul and compromised him and his ministry.

 

Let me ask this: Is it Christian/Christ-like to tell another Christian that you don't love them and you actually lied all those years when you told them you  loved them?

 

 

This happens to everyone...Christian and non Christians alike. (I am a Christian coming from non Christian background).

Also, may i ask you if at this point of time and in the context of the topic of this forum, "Are you being Christlike yourself?" What do you actually mean by being Christlike and how do you exemplify that via how you respond to what has happened to you?" (Of course, my heartfelt sympathy and i empatize what had happened in your marriage).

By the way being a Christian do not necessarily mean one is Christlike...and being Christlike do not necessarily mean he or she is a Christian. If you know what i mean. 

Perhaps she did love you  and wasnt lying till something unknown has happened. She did make all the efforts of writing those cards n letters etc. The problem here is we don't really know her story. Neither do you know what happened yourself except for what you could assume via making links and connections based in sequence of events. Still... these are assumptions. It isn't fair to expect perfection from Christians. Like someone pointed out earlier, Christians come from different backgrounds, problems etc etc and while we are still living on earth, every Christian will fall short in some ways still, whether intentionally or non intentionally. That's why Christ died for us, right? I mean Christ died for mankind...not for a group called Christians. Then, we are to grow up and mature upon receiving Christ. Now understand that by His blood and through faith, we are made perfect, not we reach perfection by our actions or work. Now we are made perfect by His blood....not made sinless. We will still sin in some ways. To deny this is to fool only ourselves. Having said this, our actions of course needs to reflect our faith in Christ. BUT... as human on earth, we are all bound to disappoint someone or be disappointed by a fellow Christian or non Christian. Things just happen, sometimes things go beyond our control and at times, we pay the price for other people's action. The question is then, WWJD - "What Would Jesus Do?"

[GandalfTheWise]

I've been through a few church splits and seen many ministry problems over the years.  To put it bluntly, this idea that everything bad in a church or among Christians is solely due to wolves and people who are not "really" Christians does not hold water with me.

Christians do hurt each other at times and sometimes seriously.  It's due to a combination of sin, immaturity, pain, ignorance, and general human failings.  We need to take responsibility and quit pretending to dump it off on others.  We are all responsible at various times.  The times we've escalated things instead of being a peacemaker.  The times we assume the worst of someone instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt.  The times we make errors in judgement and hurt people.  The times we are simply selfish and put someone into a bad situation.  The times we innocently do something and inadvertently hurt someone badly.  We've all done it to various degrees whether we want to admit or not.

I once got caught up in the aftermath of a very nasty church split as a part-time campus minister.  I ended up losing my ministry credentials over false accusations and getting hung out to dry.  However, I refuse to fall into the trap of assuming that everyone who does something that hurts me is not a Christian.  In hindsight, the reality of that church was this.  About 10 years before, the church had gone from being a small "10 family church" to over a 1000 people attending on Sunday mornings.  Some type of split happened (I could never get a straight story on it that I trusted).  About 3 or 4 churches ended up forming in the fallout as the staff went different directions.  The people who were left (and saddled with the debt of a huge new building) were many of the originals from the church when it was small.  They were grievously wounded by this and had no one to help them heal as a congregation.  Instead of taking a few years to just heal, they tried to keep going as "normal".  Over the next 5 years the church went through 5 senior pastors.  When we arrived, the current pastor had been there about 4 or 5 years.   The lack of forgiveness and healing was toxic.  The issue was that many people had been hurt deeply and they had only each other to turn to.  They had felt betrayed by people who came in for a short time and then left them holding the bag.  In the absence of forgiveness and healing, a complete distrust of all outsiders (including pastors) became normal to them.  Healing for that church took a long time (and long after I had left).  I was happy to hear that things had eventually turned around there (though it literally took two funerals before this happened).

The main point is this.  Most of those people were Christians that were caught up in stuff out of their control that deeply hurt them.  Most of the toxic stuff I saw was a consequence of a lack of healing from a deep hurt.  That was the root issue.  It was also a consequence that many Christians in that church were zealously defending what they thought was what God wanted for the church and refused to back down.  These were deeply hurting brothers and sisters in Christ that had no one come to them with a ministry of healing and encouragement when they needed it.  Many of us were hurt in the aftermath of that fiasco, but I refuse to point my finger at them and blame them for not being healed fast enough nor condemning them as not being Christians.

That whole experience shaped me deeply with regard to how I argue now.  It is not about winning arguments; it is about seeing people healed and growing spiritually. It is about spiritually discerning what someone's real issue is and not going after every symptom I see.  I contributed to the uproar in that church by defending the pastor.  I was seeing those attacking him as the enemy.  I should have seen them as deeply hurt individuals that needed God's healing touch in their lives.  Instead, I just kept hitting them on the wounds they already had.  Instead of stepping back, seriously seeking God about what to do, I was zealously going after each and every problem I saw. Since then, I refuse to pile onto someone and fight back until I am fairly certain I see the important issues in their life that God wants to deal with.    I've seen what happens when we chase after each and every symptom instead of going for the root things that God wants to deal with.

The bottom line, Christians can hurt each other deeply.  

[DesertSW]

5 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

I've been through a few church splits and seen many ministry problems over the years.  To put it bluntly, this idea that everything bad in a church or among Christians is solely due to wolves and people who are not "really" Christians does not hold water with me.

Christians do hurt each other at times and sometimes seriously.  It's due to a combination of sin, immaturity, pain, ignorance, and general human failings.  We need to take responsibility and quit pretending to dump it off on others.  We are all responsible at various times.  The times we've escalated things instead of being a peacemaker.  The times we assume the worst of someone instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt.  The times we make errors in judgement and hurt people.  The times we are simply selfish and put someone into a bad situation.  The times we innocently do something and inadvertently hurt someone badly.  We've all done it to various degrees whether we want to admit or not.

I once got caught up in the aftermath of a very nasty church split as a part-time campus minister.  I ended up losing my ministry credentials over false accusations and getting hung out to dry.  However, I refuse to fall into the trap of assuming that everyone who does something that hurts me is not a Christian.  In hindsight, the reality of that church was this.  About 10 years before, the church had gone from being a small "10 family church" to over a 1000 people attending on Sunday mornings.  Some type of split happened (I could never get a straight story on it that I trusted).  About 3 or 4 churches ended up forming in the fallout as the staff went different directions.  The people who were left (and saddled with the debt of a huge new building) were many of the originals from the church when it was small.  They were grievously wounded by this and had no one to help them heal as a congregation.  Instead of taking a few years to just heal, they tried to keep going as "normal".  Over the next 5 years the church went through 5 senior pastors.  When we arrived, the current pastor had been there about 4 or 5 years.   The lack of forgiveness and healing was toxic.  The issue was that many people had been hurt deeply and they had only each other to turn to.  They had felt betrayed by people who came in for a short time and then left them holding the bag.  In the absence of forgiveness and healing, a complete distrust of all outsiders (including pastors) became normal to them.  Healing for that church took a long time (and long after I had left).  I was happy to hear that things had eventually turned around there (though it literally took two funerals before this happened).

The main point is this.  Most of those people were Christians that were caught up in stuff out of their control that deeply hurt them.  Most of the toxic stuff I saw was a consequence of a lack of healing from a deep hurt.  That was the root issue.  It was also a consequence that many Christians in that church were zealously defending what they thought was what God wanted for the church and refused to back down.  These were deeply hurting brothers and sisters in Christ that had no one come to them with a ministry of healing and encouragement when they needed it.  Many of us were hurt in the aftermath of that fiasco, but I refuse to point my finger at them and blame them for not being healed fast enough nor condemning them as not being Christians.

That whole experience shaped me deeply with regard to how I argue now.  It is not about winning arguments; it is about seeing people healed and growing spiritually. It is about spiritually discerning what someone's real issue is and not going after every symptom I see.  I contributed to the uproar in that church by defending the pastor.  I was seeing those attacking him as the enemy.  I should have seen them as deeply hurt individuals that needed God's healing touch in their lives.  Instead, I just kept hitting them on the wounds they already had.  Instead of stepping back, seriously seeking God about what to do, I was zealously going after each and every problem I saw. Since then, I refuse to pile onto someone and fight back until I am fairly certain I see the important issues in their life that God wants to deal with.    I've seen what happens when we chase after each and every symptom instead of going for the root things that God wants to deal with.

The bottom line, Christians can hurt each other deeply.  

 

Amen, my brother. Your post is exactly what I am driving to explain. Your experiences speak volumes and mirror my point that Christians can and do hurt and betray other Christians. It doesn't hold water to simply dismiss those Christians that hurt other Christians as simply being "never saved".

Thank you for posting that! While our betrayals may have been different in some areas, similar in some, they are all the same in that we were betrayed by fellow Christian brother & sisters that we loved and cared for. Those betrayals are the ones that hurt the most and leave us with scars that influence us going forward in life. Like you, I will never be the same, I now approach situations differently due to my experiences with Christian betrayals. The latest one being my ex-wife. It was the greatest and latest betrayal in the string of 9+ Christian person betrayals before then over the course of 25 years.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by DesertSW

[GandalfTheWise]

9 hours ago, DesertSW said:

 

Amen, my brother. Your post is exactly what I am driving to explain. Your experiences speak volumes and mirror my point that Christians can and do hurt and betray other Christians. It doesn't hold water to simply dismiss those Christians that hurt other Christians as simply being "never saved".

Thank you for posting that! While our betrayals may have been different in some areas, similar in some, they are all the same in that we were betrayed by fellow Christian brother & sisters that we loved and cared for. Those betrayals are the ones that hurt the most and leave us with scars that influence us going forward in life. Like you, I will never be the same, I now approach situations differently due to my experiences with Christian betrayals. The latest one being my ex-wife. It was the greatest and latest betrayal in the string of 9+ Christian person betrayals before then over the course of 25 years.

 

 

As a word of encouragement, healing and forgiveness can eventually come.  It took years, but I hit a point that whenever I thought about that church (and some of the people in it), I just felt a little sad over it rather than feeling hurt.  The bad experiences I had with the church board there held me back.  It was the only time in my life that I had literally seen people's faces get red with anger and one time I actually saw veins pulsing on one board member's forehead as he was yelling at the pastor.  My guess is that behind the scenes he was one of the ones stirring up trouble for me.   It was a few years later at his funeral that I realized I no longer was angry at him or feeling hurt.  I just felt sad that so many years of his ministry were wasted in a misguided attempt to protect his church from outsiders.  He had so much to offer the body of Christ but it got caught up in a self-imposed mission to protect his church that he found often himself confronting the very people (new people coming into the church and the regular flock of university students) that he had the most to offer to.  

This did affect me for quite awhile.  I turned down 3 invitations to be on church and ministry boards over the next decade.   It took awhile before I wanted to have anything to do with leadership again.  An inexperienced first-time part-time campus minister left without a mentor in a church that had run out 4 experienced senior pastors in 4 years and a 5th (very patient one) after about 5 years along with a string of assistant pastors.  I got to be their target for a time.  In hindsight, I realize they just saw me as one in a long line of outsiders that would come and go and leave them with more problems than when I had arrived.  During the original split, one of the new churches that formed was led by a previous campus pastor and I'm guessing that everything I said or did was probably scrutinized under the assumption that I'd be just the same.

None of this changes the fact that I felt betrayed and hurt and had major damage done to my plans for ministry.  But, over time, healing and forgiveness came.  These were no longer festering wounds that would cause me to tighten up and feel sick to my stomach whenever I thought about it or keep me awake at night brooding over it.  They became scars that now just cause a bit of sadness over what might have been.  That experience taught me many lessons (that I rarely see in books or hear in sermons or read in posts) about the dangers of zealously confronting people who are "wrong" and "missing God's will", even when we are absolutely convinced that what they are doing is wrong.  The issue with the board member (with the red face and pulsing forehead veins) was that he was operating under the mistaken belief that the current pastor was bad for the church and that he and a few like minded people were the only ones who had the church's best interest at heart and that they were the ones who really knew what God's will was for the church.  Sadly, I did not have the experience at that time to properly confront and deal with this.  I was plenty confrontational, but not in a way that brought healing and spiritual growth.  Instead of bringing healing, forgiveness, and spiritual growth, I was just basically helping stir the pot even more and preventing progress from being made.

Many years ago, I commented to my wife on how I was feeling like a jinx.  It's like when I showed up in a church, a ministry, or a job, then everything fell apart.  In hindsight, I realize it is because one of the gifts God has given me is of being the calm person in the midst of chaos and change.  I'm not a good maintainer of the status quo, but I am good at sorting through chaos and seeing the underlying order and providing a point of stability for those being tossed about.  Through that church (and a few other similar situations), God's been giving me a chance to practice using this gift.  I've gotten much better at using it over the years.  I've also seen that what I was seeing as missed opportunities that I'd never get back were just a part of walking with God to become the man He wants me to be.  Moses' 40 years herding sheep in the wilderness changed him from an Egyptian rich kid who was given everything on a silver platter to a man who could confidently walk in the wilderness on his own as a shepherd like his forefathers had before they had come to Egypt.  God didn't want another pharaoh or Egyptian general. He wanted a prophet. When Moses saw the burning bush, he was no longer an Egyptian but a Hebrew who was now in a position to lead Hebrews.  Those 40 years were not wasted.  They were a necessity to change Moses.

As things heal over time, your experiences will put you in a position to more effectively minister to people because you will have a keen insight that many do not have about certain things.  I'm wondering if perhaps there is some underlying strong gift that you have that the experience you are gaining will provide a basis for you to be much better at using it over the years.  Not necessarily a lot of comfort at the moment, but hang in there.  

[enoob57]

One of the aspects of healing is forgiving ... When one considers the entire message of The Bible and what God has laid out forgiving should be easy but it is not because we remained focused on that which passes away instead of eternal entities ... The greatest subtleties satan has propagated is to try to merge that which God is not keeping into that which God 'IS' keeping! People lie, cheat and steal for rocks, metal and paper tell me that is not subtle!!!

[enoob57]

3 minutes ago, Davida said:

That is right...if we keep our eyes upon that which is Jesus & the LORD God's eternal plan everything else is just meaningless & a trivial distraction.  

Just like peas and carrots  

[Willa]

Eph 3:14  For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, Eph 3:15  from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, Eph 3:16  that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, Eph 3:17  so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, Eph 3:18  may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, Eph 3:19  and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Eph 3:20  Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, Eph 3:21  to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Eph 4:1  I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, Eph 4:2  with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,  Eph 4:3  eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

 Mar 10:18  And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

Each hurtful experience has taught me the depths of God's love, that He could love and forgive these hurtful people as He also has loved and forgiven me.  As I determine to love and forgive those people anyhow, God grows me and transforms me into His image.  He helps me to bear with others in love and to bless those who persecute me.  So I have concluded that those people are in my path for my growth.  What they have done to me is not so much the problem, but how I should respond to them is the problem.  We are to do so in God's strength and power, not in weakness.  Our meekness is toward God in our acceptance and obedience to the Spirit and the Word; and our humility is toward others.   We are not to think that we are better then them but remember that there but for God's grace go I, and that I also may inadvertently  fall and hurt others.