Did God "needed" the original sin?

[listener24]

Hi Marilyn 

18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

You have brought up some good points there. Now as to the `factored in` we need to go back further than when God made man, for sin entered in God`s created order (heaven and earth) when Lucifer showed that he was not worthy to rule in the angelic realms. So let`s think of before God ever created anything  -angels or man, that God desired that `all things would come under Christ`s rule. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

`...He (God the Father) made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth in Him...` (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

God knew that no angelic being or man could rule righteously, but that did not stop Him from making these creatures, he gave them all an opportunity to show if they could, as God is just and not a dictator, and thus we see over centuries that man and angelic beings have not the capacity to rule righteously.

1

Interesting point. You are analyzing what happened and is happening as a "demonstration" to men and angels that they are not able to rule by themmselves.

That makes a lot of sense to me, and luckily the Kingdom of Heaven is a "Kingdom", with a King, and I'm so glad that no human being or angelic being will rule, because I'm quite convinced that we are not able at all

Apparently, we are not even able to admit our incapacity and the failure of the project, and ask to be rescued, and here comes the second point:

18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

As to your second point - re: praying - you have hit the nail right on the head there bro. Let`s hear what the Apostle Paul says by the Spirit -

`...for a wide door and effective service has been opened to me, AND there are many adversaries.` (1 Cor. 16: 9)

This is a great topic which I will speak further on in the future.

regards, Marilyn.

2

2

Amazing, I'm looking forward to your further posts on this!

Well, talking about "adversaries", you'll find that when it comes to praying the Lord's prayer with the intention of hastening the coming of the Kingdom (2 Peter 3:12, Luke 18:1-8, Lord's prayer, last prayer in the bible, 1 Cor 16:22 ), there are plenty of opposers within Christians themselves. The situation reminds a famous Gospel verse:

"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

And talking about doors, as in the Scripture you quoted:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

The intention is usually blocked with naive considerations, like the one mentioned in the starting topic "there is first needed a certain number of conversions", or the fact that we "don't know the day nor the hour" (which is true for any other prayer, and should be a further demonstration that we can hasten the day, but weirdly for some people it becomes an argument against the power of the prayer with no apparent logic connection), or even more naive errors about the compatibility between foreknowledge and free will that people like Boethius should have clarified long time ago. The latter kind of objections I quoted say that "since the day is already known by God, it is fixed, and since it's fixed prayers have no effect". Now, it is true that God already set it, but He set it also according to the prayers that He has foreseen, therefore prayers still have an influence, as any other prayer has influence regardless God's foreknowledge. Funnily enough, you won't find such opposition against any human-invented prayer, only against this very Scriptural and useful one. 

I attach some sources on the topic, but looking forward to your posts! Let's make the Bride ready again! 

http://learnbibleprophecy.blogspot.it/2010/12/come-lord-jesus-maranatha.html

https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love-worth-finding/read/articles/can-we-hasten-the-second-coming-of-christ-15204.html

http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Timeline/Hastening.Lords.Return.html

http://christianteaching.org.uk/blog/eschatology/hastening-the-return-of-christ/#comment-32538

http://folkslisten.blogspot.it/2010/06/can-i-speed-up-return-of-jesus.html

https://nathanaelflock.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/scriptural-conviction-hastening-the-day-of-the-lord/

http://quailandmanna.com/god-justice/

https://peteenns.com/why-jesus-hasnt-come-back-yet-according-to-the-new-testament/

http://ifollowjesusnow.tk/hastening-ready-day-lord/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/215434-an-unprecedented-event-would-you-join-this/?page=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIdjGyMTAds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM67orv8VkYF

                

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by listener24

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, listener24 said:

Hi Marilyn 

Interesting point. You are analyzing what happened and is happening as a "demonstration" to men and angels that they are not able to rule by themmselves.

That makes a lot of sense to me,.... 

Now, it is true that God already set it, but He set it also according to the prayers that He has foreseen, therefore prayers still have an influence, as any other prayer has influence regardless God's foreknowledge.

                

 

Hi listener,

So glad you are understanding these different points. The Lord, the Head of the Body knows when He will bring His body to maturity, and that is by the Holy Spirit. And as we are being brought to maturity, that involves praying with the will of the Lord, praying His intentions (as you say).

This is a great topic and as I gather some notes I will post it. You can also do a thread if you want to. Topics can be approached from many angles, and one thread doesn`t cover all. So go for it, as I`ll be a wee while thinking through notes. 

regards, Marilyn.

[existential mabel]

On 26/12/2017 at 11:16 PM, ayin jade said:

The notion that God needed original sin to exist is a mormon belief. Are the Christians you are listening to actually mormons? They are not Christians. Their beliefs are not true to the bible. 

along with the rcc as well i seem to recall

[listener24]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi listener,

So glad you are understanding these different points. The Lord, the Head of the Body knows when He will bring His body to maturity, and that is by the Holy Spirit. And as we are being brought to maturity, that involves praying with the will of the Lord, praying His intentions (as you say).

This is a great topic and as I gather some notes I will post it. You can also do a thread if you want to. Topics can be approached from many angles, and one thread doesn`t cover all. So go for it, as I`ll be a wee while thinking through notes. 

regards, Marilyn.

 

I'm so glad you understand this too Marilyn! 

It's actually very simple to understand logically, and early Christians knew this, but then thanks to all the disasters we all know happened within Christianity, there have been millenniums of oblivion of this very fundamental notion.

Seems from all the links that I sent you above, from various sources included very respected preachers and theologians like Adrian Rogers, that the Lord is choosing this historical period to awaken the understanding again. It makes sense, because now with the web the intention can be spread, and a testimony of God's plan for the Kingdom can be given to all the nations. What a fundamental part, in the good novel of the Kingdom, our active role! (Luke 18:1-8) What a greater testimony than the Bride actively calling for the Bridegroom! With this understanding, it makes sense to think that the Kingdom of Heaven is "at hand".

I've opened two threads on this, but as you said the question can be approached by many angles, so looking forward to read yours. These are the ones I opened, feel free to comment:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/215434-an-unprecedented-event-would-you-join-this/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/216256-adrian-rogers-second-coming/?page=1

Plus a thread to clear the misunderstanding on foreknowledge:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/215549-do-prayers-have-no-practical-effect-since-the-father-knows-the-future/

 

Maranatha, sister!

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by listener24

[listener24]

2 hours ago, existential mabel said:

along with the rcc as well i seem to recall

I've spoken in my life with Christians from many different denominations, (excluded Mormons and few others, so we can exclude the Mormon hypothesis), so it may be the case that I've heard this from some rcc guy too. It would be great if you recall some sources about it

Moreover, if you pay close attention, you may find the belief of "necessity" in the ideas of some Protestant too (I'm talking about common Christians, not necessarily theologians). Sometimes not stated explicitly, but implicitly through other sentences: in this case, a little bit of logic is needed to spot it.  

Edited December 29, 2017 by listener24

[existential mabel]

16 hours ago, listener24 said:

I've spoken in my life with Christians from many different denominations, (excluded Mormons and few others, so we can exclude the Mormon hypothesis), so it may be the case that I've heard this from some rcc guy too. It would be great if you recall some sources about it

Moreover, if you pay close attention, you may find the belief of "necessity" in the ideas of some Protestant too (I'm talking about common Christians, not necessarily theologians). Sometimes not stated explicitly, but implicitly through other sentences: in this case, a little bit of logic is needed to spot it.  

isnt it their main basis reg bieng born into sin . that is the platform of it as it leads onto hell and damnation something the rcc frequently talked about. that for the longest time put me off ever going to a church of any discription. cos i reasoned there was no escape so why bother. then you get the other extreme of the sensual god in the evangelical religion especially in some of the music the lyrics and the video images.

Edited December 29, 2017 by existential mabel

[ghtan]

On 12/27/2017 at 6:32 AM, listener24 said:

I've heard some assertions from many siblings in Christ. One of this is like:

A - "God can only create new souls in this world, in its current state. He is waiting to reach the right number of souls before coming back."

Even if it is not always stated this way, many sentences of some siblings imply this belief. 

But if we remember that the world is in the current state because of original sin, then A implies:

B - original sin was "necessary" to God for creating new souls and reaching the number of souls he wanted. (or necessary for other purposes)

 

An alternative to the above sentences A and B would be: 

 

A2: - "God could create souls directly in Heaven or other dimensions, he has no need of the world in its current corrupted state for creating new souls and the only reasons we are here in the world in its corrupted state is original sin, chosen by men."

In this case, A2 is compatible with 

B2 - original sin was NOT necessary, but a mistake.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

So to recap, A is compatible with B, but not with B2, because to state A and B2 makes no logical sense. 

In the same way, A2 is compatible with B2 but not with B.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

What do you think? Are you more oriented on the "necessity" sentences (A,B), or the "mistake" sentences (A2,B2)?

Feel free to add alternatives and describe your position with more details!  

 

 

The idea of a right number of souls might have come from Rom 11:25 and I think it does mean that God has a certain number of believers that he wants saved before he brings history to a close. He could have created those souls in other ways but he chose to do so through Adam and his descendents. I believe God hoped Adam would stay free of sin - hence the Fall was not a necessity - but Adam failed God. God was nevertheless prepared with a salvation plan in the event Adam failed and so the Fall came as a disappointment but not a surprise to God. This is where we are now.

[Retrobyter]

On 12/26/2017 at 5:42 PM, listener24 said:

also, original sin is either "necessary" or "not necessary".

Can't be both.

Can you tell me in your opinion, which one is Scriptural? Necessary or not necessary in God's plan.

Shalom, listener24.

Original sin was NEVER "necessary"; it was "INEVITABLE!" God doesn't "allow sin in the world"; He is longsuffering and merciful to all! We were instructed that "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23a) The problem with sin is that its results are ACCUMULATIVE, and they ACCRUE over time! If our original father and mother, Adam and Chavah ("Eve"), were capable of sin when they were created sinless, we who are their lesser offspring CERTAINLY will sin! We sinned while in the "loins of our father," Adam, along with Adam! This is similar to what we read in Hebrews:

Hebrews 7:4-10 (KJV)

4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. 5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: 6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. 7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. 8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. 9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

So, just as Leviy and all of his descendants, who were the priests who received tithes, first PAID tithes to Malkhiy-Tsedeq (King of Righteousness) while in the loins of their father Avraham, so we, too, sinned with our first father, Adam, when he sinned because we were in the loins of our ultimate father! ALL of our genetic make-up stems from him!

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians,

1 Corinthians 15:21-24a (KJV)

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ [the Messiah] shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order:
(0) Christ [the Messiah] the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's [those who belong to the Messiah] at his coming. 
(2) 24Then cometh the end,....

THAT'S true "original sin." It's nothing magical; it's just that we are now inferior to the original, sinless, innocent man before he sinned, and because the "wages of sin is death," we are all subject to death because of the results of that original sin and the sins that have accumulated on top of the original sin ever since then.

And, while I'm at it, you might as well know that there was nothing "magical" about eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It's really more ironic: Before the man and woman sinned, they were sinless, just like the God who created them. Both the man and the woman and the God who created them were all good. AFTER they sinned, there was now a difference: God was/is good, but they were now evil (same as us, btw). When they ate the fruit of that tree, they disobeyed God's command, and THAT made them sinners and evil. The tree was just another tree, although God singled that tree out to be the tree from which God would command the man and the woman not to eat. By His command, He made the tree "holy."

So, God, in His foreknowledge, set His Plan in motion the moment He decided to create the earth and the man upon that earth. Like I said, it wasn't "necessary," but it WAS "inevitable."

[listener24]

Hi Retrobyter! Insightful as always.

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Original sin was NEVER "necessary"; it was "INEVITABLE!" God doesn't "allow sin in the world"; He is longsuffering and merciful to all! We were instructed that "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23a) The problem with sin is that its results are ACCUMULATIVE, and they ACCRUE over time! If our original father and mother, Adam and Chavah ("Eve"), were capable of sin when they were created sinless, we who are their lesser offspring CERTAINLY will sin! We sinned while in the "loins of our father," Adam, along with Adam! This is similar to what we read in Hebrews:

Hebrews 7:4-10 (KJV)

4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. 5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: 6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. 7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. 8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. 9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

So, just as Leviy and all of his descendants, who were the priests who received tithes, first PAID tithes to Malkhiy-Tsedeq (King of Righteousness) while in the loins of their father Avraham, so we, too, sinned with our first father, Adam, when he sinned because we were in the loins of our ultimate father! ALL of our genetic make-up stems from him!

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians,

1 Corinthians 15:21-24a (KJV)

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ [the Messiah] shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order:
(0) Christ [the Messiah] the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's [those who belong to the Messiah] at his coming. 
(2) 24Then cometh the end,....

THAT'S true "original sin." It's nothing magical; it's just that we are now inferior to the original, sinless, innocent man before he sinned, and because the "wages of sin is death," we are all subject to death because of the results of that original sin and the sins that have accumulated on top of the original sin ever since then.

That's a very interesting digression on which I agree.

I have a question. When talking about the first sinless men, what do you mean that sin was"inevitable" for them? Can you clarify more this adjective in their context? (If that adjective was referred to them too) 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, while I'm at it, you might as well know that there was nothing "magical" about eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It's really more ironic: Before the man and woman sinned, they were sinless, just like the God who created them. Both the man and the woman and the God who created them were all good. AFTER they sinned, there was now a difference: God was/is good, but they were now evil (same as us, btw). When they ate the fruit of that tree, they disobeyed God's command, and THAT made them sinners and evil. The tree was just another tree, although God singled that tree out to be the tree from which God would command the man and the woman not to eat. By His command, He made the tree "holy."

This is a very interesting point as well! 

This is in opposition to the idea that the tree of knowledge was "necessary" for us to get knowledge.

I don't have a strong opinion on this, but it's an alternative that makes sense.

I'm glad that a fruitful discussion is coming out from this thread, and many different perspectives are being explored. 

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by listener24

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, listener24 said:

Hi Retrobyter! Insightful as always.

That's a very interesting digression on which I agree.

I have a question. When talking about the first sinless men, what do you mean that sin was"inevitable" for them? Can you clarify more this adjective in their context? (If that adjective was referred to them too) 

...

Shalom, listener24.

First of all, God planned to justify people before the foundation of the world.

Second, Mankind is inherently narcissistic. Good or bad, we look out of our own eyes. It takes us an effort to think of others - to place ourselves in others' shoes. Furthermore, we seem to desire the quickest way to a goal, and seldom do we take any farther steps than we deem necessary. We, like water, seek the path with least resistance - the easiest path. Based upon these two factors, for human beings to keep God's commandment is practically an insurmountable task. If anyone says, "If I had been Adam or if I had been Eve, I wouldn't have eaten that fruit," that person is just being naive and ignorant (which means they are "ignoring" the truth). He or she ALREADY HAS eaten that fruit in Adam and Eve!