he Bible teaches us Hell is real:

Quasar93 · January 8, 2018

1. The KJV translated OT Hebrew Sheol as Hell, regardless of whether it refers to temporal or permanent punishment intended from the original translations.

2. The NIV translated it as the grave, when it is also the place where the spirits of the dead went in the OT times.

Quote from the Bible Dictionary describes Hell as follows:

"The real existence of hell is irrefutably taught in Scripture as both a place of the wicked dead and a condition of retribution for unredeemed man. It is plain that 'to die in sin' is a dreadful thing. [e.g. Ez.3:18; NIV footnote].

The nature of hell is indicated by the repeated reference to eternal punishment [Mt.25:46], eternal fire [Mt.18:8, Jude 7], everlasting chains [Jude 6], the pit of the Abyss [Rev.9:2, 11], outer darkness [Mt.8:12], the wrath of God [Rom.2:5, second death [Rev.21:8], eternal destruction from the face of God [2 Thes.1:9], and eternal sin [Mk.3:29]. While some of these terms are symbolic and descriptive, they connote real entities, about whose existence there can be no doubt."

To start with, both the English term Hell, as well as the Greek term Hades come from the transliteration of the OT Hebrew term, Sheol - which has several meanings. Therein come the mistranslations.

First of all, the direction for Sheol is always downward, into the earth below. The first meaning for Sheol, is simply reference to the grave for the dead body. All in all, Sheol was believed to be temporary, in connection with the wicked, but not the righteous, which will be covered a little later on.

In the second place, both the wicked as well as the righteous spirit/souls went to Sheol when the matural body died, in the OT As found in Jesus narrative of Lk.16:19-31 about Lazarus and the rich man, which is a perfect profile of Sheol. The righteous went there because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, according to Heb.10:4. Therefore, the righteous ones in Sheol, had to await Jesus death and resurrection before their sins could be forgiven them, as Paul explains in Rom.3:25-26, as well as in Ps.49:14-15.

In the third place, documentation Sheol was the place where the wicked went, separated from God and awaiting judgement, in Ps.6:5; 30:3, 9; 88:3-6; Job 17:13-16 and Isa.38:18.

The next important element in the Biblical teachings about Hell, comes from the Hebrew term, 'Topheth,' in Jer.7:31-32, which means, 'Place of fire,' that was located in the Valley of [ben] Hinnom,' or the Valley of the son of Hinnom,' or just plain, 'the Valley of Hinnom' [It is now nothing but a rubbish dump], with the fire going continually as a reminder of its origins, as follows:

It received its name from the wicked kings of Judah, Ahaz and Manasseh, who sacrificed their own children to the god, Molech, through the fire at Topheth, which formed part of the border between Judah and Benjamin. [2 Kgs.16:3 and 2 Chr.28:3 re Ahaz, and 2 Kgs.21:6 and 2 Chr.33:6 re Manasseh].

The Greeks used the term, Gehenna [Also geenna], to describe the Valley of the son of Hinnom, meaning, the 'place of fire,' in Hebrew, or 'The Lake of Fire," in English, the place of permanent punisment for the wicked. Jesus used this very term in the following passages of Scripture that were rendered 'Hell' in the KJV. [Mt.5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mk.9:43, 45, 47; Lk.12:5. James also used it in Jas.3:6]. In each case, Jesus clearly meant, permanent punishment. The term Tartarus is found in some translations, in 2 Pet.4:2, in reference to the fallen angels/sons of God, found in Gen.6:2 and 4.

The Greek term Hades is used to describe the 'state of the dead,' and was considered temporal, in contrast to the permanent punishment of the wicked, described by their term, "Gehenna." Hades was the Greek god of the lower regions. The KJV rendered it 'Hell' ten times, when it should have been translated Gehenna, for permanent punishment.

Therefore, there are two parts to Hell: those in [temporal] Tartarus, Sheol, Hades and Hell, awaiting the second resurrection and great white throne judgement, and those whose names are not found written in the book of life, will be thrown into [Gehenna] the Lake of Fire - along with death, and [temporal] Tartarus, Hades [Sheol and Hell]. Rev.20:11-15.

Quasar93

KiwiChristian · January 30, 2018

HELL

In the New Testament, 162 passages speak about unrepentant people going to hell, and 70 of these were described by Jesus, as he warned people to avoid it.

When the unsaved die, they go immediately to hell. Later, at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on earth, the unsaved will leave hell, receive their resurrected bodies, go to the Great White Throne Judgment and will then be cast into the Lake of Fire, where they remain forever (Revelation 20:11-15).

I. FOUR BIBLE WORDS THAT DESCRIBE HELL:

1. GEHENNA1067 referred to the continually burning rubbish dump on the south west side of Jerusalem, known as the valley of the sons of Hinnom (or Tophet). Jesus used the word "Gehenna" to describe the place of everlasting punishment because hell is a place of filth and stink, a place of smoke and pain, a place of everlasting fire and suffering. This garbage dump was likened to hell. It is used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment of the lost. It occurs twelve times in the New Testament. It is the ultimate hell of fire. It is the same as the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14,15).

Matthew 5:22 “whosoever shall say, “Thou fool”, shall be in danger of hell fire” (gehenna of the fire).

Matthew 5:29 “And if thy right eye offend thee ... and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (gehenna).
Matthew 5:30 “And if thy right hand offend thee ... and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (gehenna).
Matthew 10:28 “...fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (gehenna).

Matthew 18:9 “And if thine eye offend thee, ... rather than having two eyes to be cast into

       hell fire” (gehenna).
Matthew 23:15   “Pharisees, ... ye make him twofold more the child of hell (gehenna)
       than yourselves.”
Matthew 23:33   “Ye serpents,... how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (gehenna).
Mark 9:43   “And if thy hand offend thee, ... two hands to go into hell (gehenna), into the
       fire that never shall be quenched.”
Mark 9:45   “And if thy foot offend thee, ... two feet to be cast into hell (gehenna), into the
       fire that never shall be quenched.”
Mark 9:47   “And if thine eye offend thee, ... two eyes to be cast into hell fire” (gehenna of
       fire).
Luke 12:5   “Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell” (gehenna).
James 3:6       “the tongue is ... set on fire of hell” (set on fire by gehenna).

2. HADES86 is the intermediate state between death and the ultimate hell (gehenna), the Lake of Fire. It is where unsaved departed spirits reside. Luke 16:23. Hades never denotes the physical grave, nor is it the permanent region of the lost. Hades occurs 10 times in the New Testament, and Sheol, the Old Testament equivalent occurs 59 times. Hades is associated with privation, detention and just punishment of the unsaved dead.

Matthew 11:23 “Thou, Capernaum...shalt be brought down to hell” (hades).

Luke 10:15 Hades here expresses Capernaum's absolute overthrow, from pride to humiliation.
Matthew 16:18 “The gates of hell (hades) shall not prevail against it” (the churches’ attack). Luke 16:19-31 “And in hell (hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments931 (punishment)”

v.23. Hades here has two compartments, close to each other, yet different.
Acts 2:27 “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades).”
Acts 2:31 “That his (Christ's) soul was not left in hell (hades).”

Christ here descended into the underworld of the departed (Ephesians 4:9,10), to take the believers in it (eg: thief on the cross) up to heaven. Believers now go to heaven at death, while unbelievers still go to hades at death, a place of punishment.

Revelation 1:18 “I (Christ) ... have the keys of hell (hades) and of death.”

Revelation 6:8 “a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and hell (hades) followed with him.” Hades here is personified as the temporary destiny of the unsaved.

Revelation 20:13 “death and hell (hades) delivered up the dead which were in them.” Revelation 20:14 “death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire.”

Note: Fire is used 27 times in the New Testament to describe the after-death punishment

of unbelievers and of demons.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 “In flaming fire   taking vengeance on them that know not God, and
   obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Matthew 13:42, 50   “And shall cast them into a furnace of fire.”
Matthew 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43,45,47   “cast into fire unquenchable, hell fire.”
Isaiah 66:24   “... look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against
   me, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.”
   Mark9:44,46,48.
Isaiah 33:14   “Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
   Who among us shall dwell with the everlasting burnings?”
Matthew 18:8   “Two hands or two feet be cast into everlasting fire.”
Matthew 25:41   “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil
   and his angels.”
Jude 7   “Sodom and Gomorrha ... an example suffering the vengeance of
   eternal fire.” (Literally: of fire eternal, the penalty undergoing).
Revelation 19:20   “Beast, .. false prophet, ... and them that worshipped his image.
   These were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”
Revelation 20:10   “the devil ... shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (for
   the ages of the ages).
Revelation 20:14,15   and Rev. 21:8 “death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 14:10,11 “tormented with   fire and brimstone ... the smoke of their torment
   ascends up for ever and ever (for ages of ages), and they have no rest
   (respite) day nor night...”

3. SHEOL7585 is hades of the Old Testament. In Hebrew, it means the depth, abyss, pit, world of the dead, underworld. It occurs 66 times in the Old Testament (grave 31 times, hell 30 times, pit 3 times). Though all Old Testament people went to the grave, the souls of some will receive punishment in sheol.

Numbers 16:30 “Korah, Dathan and Abiram went down into the pit.” Psalm 9:17 “The wicked shall be turned into hell (sheol).”
4. TARTARUS5020 is the deepest abyss of Hades; a place where evil angels are imprisoned in torment, awaiting judgment and everlasting punishment.

2 Peter 2:4 is its only reference in the Bible.

“If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

II. WHAT IS HELL (GEHENNA and HADES) LIKE?

1. UNQUENCHABLE FIRE: “He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12. Hell “fire” is real “fire” because the same Greek word (pur) for fire is used for both. “It rained fire and brimstone...” Matthew 17:15 and Luke 17:29.

The rich man in hades said: “I am tormented in this flame.” Luke 16:24.

2. MEMORY AND REGRET. Abraham said to the rich man in hades “remember” in Luke 16:25. Lost people will remember their sins and the times that they rejected the Holy Spirit convicting them of their sins and their need for Jesus Christ to be their Saviour. They will remember how Christians told them the plan of salvation.

3. THIRST. The rich man in hell begged Abraham to “send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue” (Luke 16:24), yet this was refused. Imagine going without water for one day, let alone for eternity without water.
Jesus Christ offers in John 7:37, “If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink.”

4. SEPARATION. People in hell will experience a “great gulf” (Luke 16:26) between them and God. They took all the good things of life for granted when they were on earth. They will be forever separated from all the good gifts of God. Many unbelievers joke that “I won't be lonely in hell, as all my friends will be there.” Friendship means nothing under everlasting torment.

5. INJUSTICE AND FILTHINESS OF SIN are in hell. Revelation 22:11. “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy let him be filthy still.” No one likes people treating them unjustly, nor do people like being abused in a filthy manner. The unsaved will experience these conditions forever in hell.

6. HOPELESSNESS FOR ALL ETERNITY. Hell is the everlasting dwelling place of the unsaved. Sooner or later they will realise that they are in hell to stay there forever, with no escape. In Luke 16:26, Abraham told the rich man in hell: “They which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us.”

7. STINK OF SULPHUR. “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone (sulphur); which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8.

8. EYESIGHT, HEARING, TOUCH, TASTE AND SMELL are senses that people possess in hell. The rich man in Luke 16:19-31 could “see” Abraham, “hear” his voice, “touch” the flames, desire to “taste” water, and “smell” the sulphur. Revelation 21:8.

9. THE DEVIL and DEMON ANGELS will accompany the Christ rejecters forever.

10. UNSATISFIED DESIRES. Both of the rich man's requests were denied in Luke 16:19-31. He requested a drop of water to cool his tongue, and for Lazarus to return to tell his five unsaved brothers how to be saved and avoid hell. Both requests were denied. How many times a day do you want something and get it? In hell, no one ever gets what they want.

11. PLACE OF WORMS. “Where their worm dieth not...” Mark 9:44,46,48.

Worm means maggot. If the maggots do not die, and the people own the maggots, then neither do the people die or get annihilated in hell.

12. TORMENT and PUNISHMENT. “In hell, he lift up his eyes being in torments.” Luke 16:23.

13. SHAME and HATRED. “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Daniel 12:2. People suffering in hell will get a resurrection body. They will be judged, and sent to the lake of fire in shame at their sins. They will experience everlasting contempt, hating their situation forever.

14. DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT IN HELL. “It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgement, than for that city.” Mark 6:11.
Those who reject Christ most often, will receive greater punishment. Matthew 10:15.

15. WEEPING, WAILING, GNASHING OF TEETH. “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:12 and 13:49,50. People who today are arrogant, proud Christ-rejecters will be wailing and gnashing their teeth in hell.

16. HADES IS IN THE EARTH. Amos 9:2 “though they dig into hell ...”,

Isaiah 14:9 “hell from beneath”, Ephesians 4:9 “descended into lower parts of earth”, Numbers 16:33 “they went down alive into the pit”,
Psalm 63:9 “those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.”

17. HELL IS ORIGINALLY PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS

“Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:41.
How does one get to hell? By neglecting to receive Christ as Saviour. Hebrews 2:3 “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?” How does one avoid hell? By receiving Christ as their Saviour. John 1:12.

Christians should work harder to rescue people from hell, and seek to build their church to better achieve this task, both at home and overseas.
Question 1: Does “hell” mean “grave” where good and bad must go?

Answer: No, because in Luke 16:19-31 both men went to the grave, but the soul of Lazarus was comforted, and the soul of the rich man was tormented.
Question 2: How can a loving God send people to hell?

Answer: People send themselves to hell by rejecting Christ. God is loving in sending Christ to die for our sins, but God is just in punishing sin.

III. JESUS' STORY OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS in Luke 16:19-31.

An unbelieving rich man who had abundant material possessions and food in this life, died and went to hell. A believing poor man named Lazarus who had nothing in this life but sickness and poverty, died and was carried by the angels into the comfort of paradise. The suffering rich man in hell made two requests of Abraham in paradise:

i) To send Lazarus to put one drop of water on his tongue to relieve his suffering.

The rich man, who refused to show mercy to Lazarus in need, now begged that Lazarus might show mercy to him in his need (v.24). The rich man declares the greatness of his torment saying: “I am in torment (agony) in this fire (or flame).” v.24.
Lesson: Material things have only temporary, not eternal value. Luke 16:25.

Abraham responded by calling him “son”. This means that he was a son of Abraham by flesh, not by faith. The rich man trusted his wealth and his physical descent from Abraham for his salvation. Christ showed that neither reason was sufficient for salvation. At death, one's eternal destiny is settled. "Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed" (v.26). The rich man could remember his false confidence in wealth, and his wrong devotion to it. This story refutes "soul-sleep", because the rich man and Lazarus were conscious, one enjoying comfort, and the other suffering torment.

Note: Hades had two sections: paradise and hell punishment. Jesus emptied the paradise section when He rose from the dead and took the Old Testament believers’ souls to heaven. Eph. 4:8-10; John 20:17.

“Torment” is used four times and means sorrow and grief.
Abraham gave two reasons why Lazarus could not comfort the rich man:
a) The rich man had received his reward (Matthew 6:2,5,16), and he had left God out of his life.
b)The great gulf separated them.

ii) To send Lazarus back to warn his five brothers. Luke 16:27-31.

The rich man did not say: “I'm glad my brothers will come here, we'll have a wonderful time together.”
People sometimes say: "I want to go to hell. All my friends will be there." Answer: There is no friendship in hell. Hell is a place of torment and loneliness.

Lesson: People in hell have a concern for the lost, but they cannot do anything about it, BUT WE CAN! What are you doing?
v.29-31: Abraham said that the only thing that could prevent his five brothers from coming to hell was:
Hearing the Word of God, and responding to it by faith in Christ as Saviour.

A man named Lazarus did come back from the dead, and some of the Pharisees wanted to kill him (John 11:43-57; 12:10).
God had spoken many times to the rich man while on earth:
1.    God permitted him to have riches, but not attributing his riches to God’s goodness, he did not repent.
   “The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.” Romans 2:4-5.
2.    Lazarus would have witnessed to him, but his pride rejected Lazarus’ message.
3.    Old Testament scriptures spoke to him.
4.    Lazarus dying first, should have reminded him how he would also die. In hell he was still self-centred, praying for his comfort and for the safety of his family. He was not concerned about other lost sinners. C.S. Lewis says: “The safest road to hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts.”

Lessons from the rich man and Lazarus:

1. The souls of men do not die with their bodies.
2. The souls of men are conscious after death, not asleep until resurrected.

3.    The righteous at death are taken immediately to a place of happiness and the wicked are sent to a place of misery and torment.
4.    Wealth does not protect us from death.
5.    We should not envy the rich, as riches can blind us to the reality of eternity.
6.    We should seek a better inheritance than this life can give.
7.    The sufferings of the wicked in hell will be indescribably great of torment, burning flame, and insatiable thirst, forever.

8. Hell is a place of suffering beyond the grave. If not, this story has no meaning.

9. There will never be any escape from hell. The gulf is fixed.
10. God warns us to prepare for death through:
His Word.

His Holy Spirit pleading with sinners. His servants.
His goodness leading us to repentance. Pleadings of friends.
Heaven.
If all that would not move sinners, then what would? He threatens hell.
11. God will give us nothing more to warn us. No dead man will return to tell us what he has seen. If he did, no one would believe him. If you will not hear Christ or the Bible, there is nothing you will hear. You will never be persuaded, and you will never escape the place of torment.
12. We see the amazing folly of those wanting to go to hell. They have been deceived.

IV. THE IMPLICATIONS OF HELL FOR US TODAY

1.    Soul winning is important. When people get angry at a preacher preaching on soul winning, they are doing the devil's work.
2.    We need to become fishers of men. Matthew 4:19.
3.    If we are busy pulling souls out of the fire, we will not waste our time fighting other Christians. We will seek to maintain unity in our church.
4.    We see our Church as of great importance in rescuing people from hell. Rescuing people from hell is a major purpose of churches.
5.    Hell focuses our attention on eternity, taking our attention off petty present things like latest worldly fashions which pale into insignificance in the light of lost people going to an eternal hell.
6.    Hell makes us train workers to be soul winners.
7.    It gives us a love for people to win to Christ and to train in the Bible.
8.    It makes us use our time wisely so that all we do helps in some way to rescue people from hell.
9.    Hell makes us mission minded so that we try to win lost people to Christ overseas. For example, Roman Catholics in Africa grew from 52 million in 1980 to 92 million in 1993.

10.    Hell and eternal judgment is the sixth principle of the Doctrine of Christ, so it must be emphasised in our doctrinal teaching. “the foundation of ……eternal judgment.” Hebrews 6:1,2.
11.    Hell will give us a better testimony as Christians. If we sin, people will go to hell.
12.    Hell will stop us backsliding because we will realise that our job is important to accomplish in rescuing people from hell. “For what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and lose his own soul?” Mark 8:36. What is your answer to this question?

Conclusion

Are you really saved?

Have you received Jesus Christ as your Saviour, trusting Him alone to save you, not your religion or your good works?

If you are saved, then what are you doing to tell people how Jesus Christ can save them from hell?

Retrobyter · January 31, 2018

On 1/7/2018 at 11:24 PM, Quasar93 said:

1. The KJV translated OT Hebrew Sheol as Hell, regardless of whether it refers to temporal or permanent punishment intended from the original translations.

2. The NIV translated it as the grave, when it is also the place where the spirits of the dead went in the OT times.

Quote from the Bible Dictionary describes Hell as follows:

"The real existence of hell is irrefutably taught in Scripture as both a place of the wicked dead and a condition of retribution for unredeemed man. It is plain that 'to die in sin' is a dreadful thing. [e.g. Ez.3:18; NIV footnote].

The nature of hell is indicated by the repeated reference to eternal punishment [Mt.25:46], eternal fire [Mt.18:8, Jude 7], everlasting chains [Jude 6], the pit of the Abyss [Rev.9:2, 11], outer darkness [Mt.8:12], the wrath of God [Rom.2:5, second death [Rev.21:8], eternal destruction from the face of God [2 Thes.1:9], and eternal sin [Mk.3:29]. While some of these terms are symbolic and descriptive, they connote real entities, about whose existence there can be no doubt."

To start with, both the English term Hell, as well as the Greek term Hades come from the transliteration of the OT Hebrew term, Sheol - which has several meanings. Therein come the mistranslations.

First of all, the direction for Sheol is always downward, into the earth below. The first meaning for Sheol, is simply reference to the grave for the dead body. All in all, Sheol was believed to be temporary, in connection with the wicked, but not the righteous, which will be covered a little later on.

In the second place, both the wicked as well as the righteous spirit/souls went to Sheol when the matural body died, in the OT As found in Jesus narrative of Lk.16:19-31 about Lazarus and the rich man, which is a perfect profile of Sheol. The righteous went there because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, according to Heb.10:4. Therefore, the righteous ones in Sheol, had to await Jesus death and resurrection before their sins could be forgiven them, as Paul explains in Rom.3:25-26, as well as in Ps.49:14-15.

In the third place, documentation Sheol was the place where the wicked went, separated from God and awaiting judgement, in Ps.6:5; 30:3, 9; 88:3-6; Job 17:13-16 and Isa.38:18.

The next important element in the Biblical teachings about Hell, comes from the Hebrew term, 'Topheth,' in Jer.7:31-32, which means, 'Place of fire,' that was located in the Valley of [ben] Hinnom,' or the Valley of the son of Hinnom,' or just plain, 'the Valley of Hinnom' [It is now nothing but a rubbish dump], with the fire going continually as a reminder of its origins, as follows:

It received its name from the wicked kings of Judah, Ahaz and Manasseh, who sacrificed their own children to the god, Molech, through the fire at Topheth, which formed part of the border between Judah and Benjamin. [2 Kgs.16:3 and 2 Chr.28:3 re Ahaz, and 2 Kgs.21:6 and 2 Chr.33:6 re Manasseh].

The Greeks used the term, Gehenna [Also geenna], to describe the Valley of the son of Hinnom, meaning, the 'place of fire,' in Hebrew, or 'The Lake of Fire," in English, the place of permanent punisment for the wicked. Jesus used this very term in the following passages of Scripture that were rendered 'Hell' in the KJV. [Mt.5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mk.9:43, 45, 47; Lk.12:5. James also used it in Jas.3:6]. In each case, Jesus clearly meant, permanent punishment. The term Tartarus is found in some translations, in 2 Pet.4:2, in reference to the fallen angels/sons of God, found in Gen.6:2 and 4.

The Greek term Hades is used to describe the 'state of the dead,' and was considered temporal, in contrast to the permanent punishment of the wicked, described by their term, "Gehenna." Hades was the Greek god of the lower regions. The KJV rendered it 'Hell' ten times, when it should have been translated Gehenna, for permanent punishment.

Therefore, there are two parts to Hell: those in [temporal] Tartarus, Sheol, Hades and Hell, awaiting the second resurrection and great white throne judgement, and those whose names are not found written in the book of life, will be thrown into [Gehenna] the Lake of Fire - along with death, and [temporal] Tartarus, Hades [Sheol and Hell]. Rev.20:11-15.

Quasar93

On 1/29/2018 at 8:35 PM, KiwiChristian said:

HELL

In the New Testament, 162 passages speak about unrepentant people going to hell, and 70 of these were described by Jesus, as he warned people to avoid it.

When the unsaved die, they go immediately to hell. Later, at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on earth, the unsaved will leave hell, receive their resurrected bodies, go to the Great White Throne Judgment and will then be cast into the Lake of Fire, where they remain forever (Revelation 20:11-15).

I. FOUR BIBLE WORDS THAT DESCRIBE HELL:

1. GEHENNA1067 referred to the continually burning rubbish dump on the south west side of Jerusalem, known as the valley of the sons of Hinnom (or Tophet). Jesus used the word "Gehenna" to describe the place of everlasting punishment because hell is a place of filth and stink, a place of smoke and pain, a place of everlasting fire and suffering. This garbage dump was likened to hell. It is used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment of the lost. It occurs twelve times in the New Testament. It is the ultimate hell of fire. It is the same as the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14,15).

Matthew 5:22 “whosoever shall say, “Thou fool”, shall be in danger of hell fire” (gehenna of the fire).

Matthew 5:29 “And if thy right eye offend thee ... and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (gehenna).
Matthew 5:30 “And if thy right hand offend thee ... and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (gehenna).
Matthew 10:28 “...fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (gehenna).

Matthew 18:9 “And if thine eye offend thee, ... rather than having two eyes to be cast into

       hell fire” (gehenna).
Matthew 23:15   “Pharisees, ... ye make him twofold more the child of hell (gehenna)
       than yourselves.”
Matthew 23:33   “Ye serpents,... how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (gehenna).
Mark 9:43   “And if thy hand offend thee, ... two hands to go into hell (gehenna), into the
       fire that never shall be quenched.”
Mark 9:45   “And if thy foot offend thee, ... two feet to be cast into hell (gehenna), into the
       fire that never shall be quenched.”
Mark 9:47   “And if thine eye offend thee, ... two eyes to be cast into hell fire” (gehenna of
       fire).
Luke 12:5   “Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell” (gehenna).
James 3:6       “the tongue is ... set on fire of hell” (set on fire by gehenna).

2. HADES86 is the intermediate state between death and the ultimate hell (gehenna), the Lake of Fire. It is where unsaved departed spirits reside. Luke 16:23. Hades never denotes the physical grave, nor is it the permanent region of the lost. Hades occurs 10 times in the New Testament, and Sheol, the Old Testament equivalent occurs 59 times. Hades is associated with privation, detention and just punishment of the unsaved dead.

Matthew 11:23 “Thou, Capernaum...shalt be brought down to hell” (hades).

Luke 10:15 Hades here expresses Capernaum's absolute overthrow, from pride to humiliation.
Matthew 16:18 “The gates of hell (hades) shall not prevail against it” (the churches’ attack). Luke 16:19-31 “And in hell (hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments931 (punishment)”

v.23. Hades here has two compartments, close to each other, yet different.
Acts 2:27   “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades).”
Acts 2:31   “That his (Christ's) soul was not left in hell (hades).”

Christ here descended into the underworld of the departed (Ephesians 4:9,10), to take the believers in it (eg: thief on the cross) up to heaven. Believers now go to heaven at death, while unbelievers still go to hades at death, a place of punishment.

Revelation 1:18 “I (Christ) ... have the keys of hell (hades) and of death.”

Revelation 6:8 “a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and hell (hades) followed with him.” Hades here is personified as the temporary destiny of the unsaved.

Revelation 20:13 “death and hell (hades) delivered up the dead which were in them.” Revelation 20:14 “death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire.”

Note: Fire is used 27 times in the New Testament to describe the after-death punishment

of unbelievers and of demons.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 “In flaming fire   taking vengeance on them that know not God, and
   obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Matthew 13:42, 50   “And shall cast them into a furnace of fire.”
Matthew 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43,45,47   “cast into fire unquenchable, hell fire.”
Isaiah 66:24   “... look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against
   me, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.”
   Mark9:44,46,48.
Isaiah 33:14   “Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
   Who among us shall dwell with the everlasting burnings?”
Matthew 18:8   “Two hands or two feet be cast into everlasting fire.”
Matthew 25:41   “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil
   and his angels.”
Jude 7   “Sodom and Gomorrha ... an example suffering the vengeance of
   eternal fire.” (Literally: of fire eternal, the penalty undergoing).
Revelation 19:20   “Beast, .. false prophet, ... and them that worshipped his image.
   These were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”
Revelation 20:10   “the devil ... shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (for
   the ages of the ages).
Revelation 20:14,15   and Rev. 21:8 “death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 14:10,11 “tormented with   fire and brimstone ... the smoke of their torment
   ascends up for ever and ever (for ages of ages), and they have no rest
   (respite) day nor night...”

3. SHEOL7585 is hades of the Old Testament. In Hebrew, it means the depth, abyss, pit, world of the dead, underworld. It occurs 66 times in the Old Testament (grave 31 times, hell 30 times, pit 3 times). Though all Old Testament people went to the grave, the souls of some will receive punishment in sheol.

Numbers 16:30 “Korah, Dathan and Abiram went down into the pit.” Psalm 9:17 “The wicked shall be turned into hell (sheol).”
4. TARTARUS5020 is the deepest abyss of Hades; a place where evil angels are imprisoned in torment, awaiting judgment and everlasting punishment.

2 Peter 2:4 is its only reference in the Bible.

“If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

II. WHAT IS HELL (GEHENNA and HADES) LIKE?

1.    UNQUENCHABLE FIRE: “He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12. Hell “fire” is real “fire” because the same Greek word (pur) for fire is used for both. “It rained fire and brimstone...” Matthew 17:15 and Luke 17:29.

   The rich man in hades said: “I am tormented in this flame.” Luke 16:24.

2.    MEMORY AND REGRET. Abraham said to the rich man in hades “remember” in Luke 16:25. Lost people will remember their sins and the times that they rejected the Holy Spirit convicting them of their sins and their need for Jesus Christ to be their Saviour. They will remember how Christians told them the plan of salvation.

3.    THIRST. The rich man in hell begged Abraham to “send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue” (Luke 16:24), yet this was refused. Imagine going without water for one day, let alone for eternity without water.
   Jesus Christ offers in John 7:37, “If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink.”

4.    SEPARATION. People in hell will experience a “great gulf” (Luke 16:26) between them and God. They took all the good things of life for granted when they were on earth. They will be forever separated from all the good gifts of God. Many unbelievers joke that “I won't be lonely in hell, as all my friends will be there.” Friendship means nothing under everlasting torment.

5.    INJUSTICE AND FILTHINESS OF SIN are in hell. Revelation 22:11. “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy let him be filthy still.” No one likes people treating them unjustly, nor do people like being abused in a filthy manner. The unsaved will experience these conditions forever in hell.

6.    HOPELESSNESS FOR ALL ETERNITY. Hell is the everlasting dwelling place of the unsaved. Sooner or later they will realise that they are in hell to stay there forever, with no escape. In Luke 16:26, Abraham told the rich man in hell: “They which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us.”

7.    STINK OF SULPHUR. “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone (sulphur); which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8.

8.    EYESIGHT, HEARING, TOUCH, TASTE AND SMELL are senses that people possess in hell. The rich man in Luke 16:19-31 could “see” Abraham, “hear” his voice, “touch” the flames, desire to “taste” water, and “smell” the sulphur. Revelation 21:8.

9. THE DEVIL and DEMON ANGELS will accompany the Christ rejecters forever.

10. UNSATISFIED DESIRES. Both of the rich man's requests were denied in Luke 16:19-31. He requested a drop of water to cool his tongue, and for Lazarus to return to tell his five unsaved brothers how to be saved and avoid hell. Both requests were denied. How many times a day do you want something and get it? In hell, no one ever gets what they want.

11. PLACE OF WORMS. “Where their worm dieth not...” Mark 9:44,46,48.

Worm means maggot. If the maggots do not die, and the people own the maggots, then neither do the people die or get annihilated in hell.

12.    TORMENT and PUNISHMENT. “In hell, he lift up his eyes being in torments.” Luke 16:23.

13.    SHAME and HATRED. “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Daniel 12:2. People suffering in hell will get a resurrection body. They will be judged, and sent to the lake of fire in shame at their sins. They will experience everlasting contempt, hating their situation forever.

14.    DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT IN HELL. “It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgement, than for that city.” Mark 6:11.
   Those who reject Christ most often, will receive greater punishment. Matthew 10:15.

15.    WEEPING, WAILING, GNASHING OF TEETH. “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:12 and 13:49,50. People who today are arrogant, proud Christ-rejecters will be wailing and gnashing their teeth in hell.

16.    HADES IS IN THE EARTH. Amos 9:2 “though they dig into hell ...”,

Isaiah 14:9 “hell from beneath”, Ephesians 4:9 “descended into lower parts of earth”, Numbers 16:33 “they went down alive into the pit”,
Psalm 63:9 “those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.”

17. HELL IS ORIGINALLY PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS

“Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:41.
How does one get to hell? By neglecting to receive Christ as Saviour. Hebrews 2:3 “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?” How does one avoid hell? By receiving Christ as their Saviour. John 1:12.

Christians should work harder to rescue people from hell, and seek to build their church to better achieve this task, both at home and overseas.
Question 1: Does “hell” mean “grave” where good and bad must go?

Answer: No, because in Luke 16:19-31 both men went to the grave, but the soul of Lazarus was comforted, and the soul of the rich man was tormented.
Question 2: How can a loving God send people to hell?

Answer: People send themselves to hell by rejecting Christ. God is loving in sending Christ to die for our sins, but God is just in punishing sin.

III. JESUS' STORY OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS in Luke 16:19-31.

An unbelieving rich man who had abundant material possessions and food in this life, died and went to hell. A believing poor man named Lazarus who had nothing in this life but sickness and poverty, died and was carried by the angels into the comfort of paradise. The suffering rich man in hell made two requests of Abraham in paradise:

i) To send Lazarus to put one drop of water on his tongue to relieve his suffering.

The rich man, who refused to show mercy to Lazarus in need, now begged that Lazarus might show mercy to him in his need (v.24). The rich man declares the greatness of his torment saying: “I am in torment (agony) in this fire (or flame).” v.24.
Lesson:   Material things have only temporary, not eternal value. Luke 16:25.

Abraham responded by calling him “son”. This means that he was a son of Abraham by flesh, not by faith. The rich man trusted his wealth and his physical descent from Abraham for his salvation. Christ showed that neither reason was sufficient for salvation. At death, one's eternal destiny is settled. "Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed" (v.26). The rich man could remember his false confidence in wealth, and his wrong devotion to it. This story refutes "soul-sleep", because the rich man and Lazarus were conscious, one enjoying comfort, and the other suffering torment.

Note: Hades had two sections: paradise and hell punishment. Jesus emptied the paradise section when He rose from the dead and took the Old Testament believers’ souls to heaven. Eph. 4:8-10; John 20:17.

“Torment” is used four times and means sorrow and grief.
Abraham gave two reasons why Lazarus could not comfort the rich man:
a)   The rich man had received his reward (Matthew 6:2,5,16), and he had left God out of his life.
b)The great gulf separated them.

ii) To send Lazarus back to warn his five brothers. Luke 16:27-31.

The rich man did not say: “I'm glad my brothers will come here, we'll have a wonderful time together.”
People sometimes say: "I want to go to hell. All my friends will be there." Answer: There is no friendship in hell. Hell is a place of torment and loneliness.

Lesson: People in hell have a concern for the lost, but they cannot do anything about it, BUT WE CAN! What are you doing?
v.29-31: Abraham said that the only thing that could prevent his five brothers from coming to hell was:
Hearing the Word of God, and responding to it by faith in Christ as Saviour.

A man named Lazarus did come back from the dead, and some of the Pharisees wanted to kill him (John 11:43-57; 12:10).
God had spoken many times to the rich man while on earth:
1.    God permitted him to have riches, but not attributing his riches to God’s goodness, he did not repent.
   “The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.” Romans 2:4-5.
2.    Lazarus would have witnessed to him, but his pride rejected Lazarus’ message.
3.    Old Testament scriptures spoke to him.
4.    Lazarus dying first, should have reminded him how he would also die. In hell he was still self-centred, praying for his comfort and for the safety of his family. He was not concerned about other lost sinners. C.S. Lewis says: “The safest road to hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts.”

Lessons from the rich man and Lazarus:

1.    The souls of men do not die with their bodies.
2.    The souls of men are conscious after death, not asleep until resurrected.

3.    The righteous at death are taken immediately to a place of happiness and the wicked are sent to a place of misery and torment.
4.    Wealth does not protect us from death.
5.    We should not envy the rich, as riches can blind us to the reality of eternity.
6.    We should seek a better inheritance than this life can give.
7.    The sufferings of the wicked in hell will be indescribably great of torment, burning flame, and insatiable thirst, forever.

8.    Hell is a place of suffering beyond the grave. If not, this story has no meaning.

9.    There will never be any escape from hell. The gulf is fixed.
10.    God warns us to prepare for death through:
His Word.

His Holy Spirit pleading with sinners. His servants.
His goodness leading us to repentance. Pleadings of friends.
Heaven.
If all that would not move sinners, then what would? He threatens hell.
11.    God will give us nothing more to warn us. No dead man will return to tell us what he has seen. If he did, no one would believe him. If you will not hear Christ or the Bible, there is nothing you will hear. You will never be persuaded, and you will never escape the place of torment.
12.    We see the amazing folly of those wanting to go to hell. They have been deceived.

IV. THE IMPLICATIONS OF HELL FOR US TODAY

1.    Soul winning is important. When people get angry at a preacher preaching on soul winning, they are doing the devil's work.
2.    We need to become fishers of men. Matthew 4:19.
3.    If we are busy pulling souls out of the fire, we will not waste our time fighting other Christians. We will seek to maintain unity in our church.
4.    We see our Church as of great importance in rescuing people from hell. Rescuing people from hell is a major purpose of churches.
5.    Hell focuses our attention on eternity, taking our attention off petty present things like latest worldly fashions which pale into insignificance in the light of lost people going to an eternal hell.
6.    Hell makes us train workers to be soul winners.
7.    It gives us a love for people to win to Christ and to train in the Bible.
8.    It makes us use our time wisely so that all we do helps in some way to rescue people from hell.
9.    Hell makes us mission minded so that we try to win lost people to Christ overseas. For example, Roman Catholics in Africa grew from 52 million in 1980 to 92 million in 1993.

10.    Hell and eternal judgment is the sixth principle of the Doctrine of Christ, so it must be emphasised in our doctrinal teaching. “the foundation of ……eternal judgment.” Hebrews 6:1,2.
11.    Hell will give us a better testimony as Christians. If we sin, people will go to hell.
12.    Hell will stop us backsliding because we will realise that our job is important to accomplish in rescuing people from hell. “For what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and lose his own soul?” Mark 8:36. What is your answer to this question?

Conclusion

Are you really saved?

Have you received Jesus Christ as your Saviour, trusting Him alone to save you, not your religion or your good works?

If you are saved, then what are you doing to tell people how Jesus Christ can save them from hell?

Shalom, Quasar93 and KiwiChristian.

Perspective is EVERYTHING!

The basic understanding of each Greek word is ONLY fully defined by its contexts.

Let's look at the word "Hades" (Which is pronounced "HAH-dace," NOT "HAY-deez," by the way!) The word comes from a Greek word for "to see" with a negative prefix. It means the "unseen." It NEVER should have been translated as "hell!" Look at Luke 16: How can a person who can see, talk, hear, feel, taste, and smell really be without a body? How can a person have a finger that is dipped in water without a body? How can a person have a tongue that is tortured in flame without a body? That is NOT what this passage is talking about!

No time tonight, but I really must say that both theological scenarios are ridiculous. While there will certainly be a "Lake of Fire and Sulfur" or a "Lake of Burning Sulfur," the terms translated "hell," such as "ge-enna" (Hebrew for "Valley of Hinoam"), "hadees," and "tartaro-oo," should NEVER have been translated "hell," as though they could reflect the "Lake of Fire." That's NOT what they meant.

It's time to RE-EVALUATE!

KiwiChristian · February 1, 2018

On 1/31/2018 at 5:06 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Quasar93 and KiwiChristian.

Perspective is EVERYTHING!

The basic understanding of each Greek word is ONLY fully defined by its contexts.

Let's look at the word "Hades" (Which is pronounced "HAH-dace," NOT "HAY-deez," by the way!) The word comes from a Greek word for "to see" with a negative prefix. It means the "unseen." It NEVER should have been translated as "hell!" Look at Luke 16: How can a person who can see, talk, hear, feel, taste, and smell really be without a body? How can a person have a finger that is dipped in water without a body? How can a person have a tongue that is tortured in flame without a body? That is NOT what this passage is talking about!

No time tonight, but I really must say that both theological scenarios are ridiculous. While there will certainly be a "Lake of Fire and Sulfur" or a "Lake of Burning Sulfur," the terms translated "hell," such as "ge-enna" (Hebrew for "Valley of Hinoam"), "hadees," and "tartaro-oo," should NEVER have been translated "hell," as though they could reflect the "Lake of Fire." That's NOT what they meant.

It's time to RE-EVALUATE!

since everyone is wrong except YOU, you tell us what "hell" means, then.

Retrobyter · February 2, 2018

21 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

since everyone is wrong except YOU, you tell us what "hell" means, then.

Shalom, KiwiChristian.

Wikipedia gives us the following about the etymology of the word "hell":

'The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (about 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period, and ultimately from Proto-Germanic *halja, meaning "one who covers up or hides something"[1] The word has cognates in Latin (see verb cēlō, "to hide") and in related Germanic languages such as Old Frisian helle, hille, Old Saxon hellja, Middle Dutch helle (modern Dutch hel), Old High German helle (Modern German Hölle), Danish, Norwegian and Swedish helvede/helvete (hel + Old Norse vitti, "punishment" whence the Icelandic víti "hell"), and Gothic halja.[1] Subsequently, the word was used to transfer a pagan concept to Christian theology and its vocabulary[1] (however, for the Judeo-Christian origin of the concept see Gehenna).

'Some have theorized that English word hell is derived from Old Norse hel.[1]However, this is very unlikely as hel appears in Old English before the Viking invasions. Furthermore, the word has cognates in all the other Germanic languages and has a Proto-Germanic origin.[2] Among other sources, the Poetic Edda, compiled from earlier traditional sources in the 13th century, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, provide information regarding the beliefs of the Norse pagans, including a being named Hel, who is described as ruling over an underworld location of the same name.'

Following their lead to look up "Gehenna,"...

'Gehenna (/ɡɪˈhɛnə/; גיא בן הינום‬ Ancient Greek: γέεννα) from the Hebrew Gehinnom (Rabbinical: גהנום‬/גהנם‬) is a small valley in Jerusalem. In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire.[1] Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[2]

'In Rabbinic literature and Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[3] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, although the King James Version of the Bible usually translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

'In the King James Version of the Bible, the term appears 13 times in 11 different verses as Valley of Hinnom, Valley of the son of Hinnom or Valley of the children of Hinnom.

'The Valley of Hinnom is the modern name for the valley surrounding Jerusalem's Old City, including Mount Zion, from the west and south. It meets and merges with the Kidron Valley, the other principal valley around the Old City, near the southeastern corner of the city.'

It's etymology is described:

English "Gehenna" represents the Greek Ge'enna (γέεννα) found in the New Testament, a phonetic transcription of Aramaic Gēhannā (ܓܗܢܐ),equivalent to the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, literally "Valley of Hinnom".

This was known in the Old Testament as Gei Ben-Hinnom,[4] literally the "Valley of the son of Hinnom",[5] and in the Talmud as גהנם‬ Gehinnam or גהנום‬ Gehinnom.

There is a LITERAL PLACE called "Gei-Hinnom" in Jerusalem, Israel; one can go there today! It's Global coordinates are 31^o 46’ 6.262” N by 35^o 13’ 49.58” E. One can use most mapping programs, such as Google Earth, to locate it.

The valley on the EAST side of Jerusalem was known as the Valley of Jehoshafat (or the Kidron Valley):

'The Valley of Josaphat (variants: Valley of Jehoshaphat and Valley of Yehoshephat) is a Biblical place mentioned by name in Joel 3:2 and Joel 3:12: "I will gather together all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Josaphat: "Then I will enter into judgment with them there", on behalf of my people and for My inheritance Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations and they have divided up My land."; "Let the nations be roused; Let the nations be aroused And come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side". This location is also referred to as the Valley of Decision.

'By one interpretation, this describes the place where, in the presence of Josaphat, King of Judah, YHVH annihilated the Gentile coalition of Moab, Ammon and Edom. This may have indicated an actual valley euphemistically called by the Jewsêmêq Berâkâh ("valley of blessing"), situated in the desert of Teqo'a near Khirbet Berêkût, west of the Khirbet Teqû'a (about eleven miles from Jerusalem). Alternatively, it may refer to an indeterminate valley of judgment, since "Josaphat" means "YHVH judges". In Joel 3:14 the same valley is called "valley of destruction" (A. V. "valley of decision"). The chapter in question describes how the nations that afflicted Judah and Jerusalem during their Babylonian captivity and return from exile shall receive Divine Judgment.[1]

'In the fourth century, in the Bordeaux itinerary, the Cedron takes the name of Valley of Josaphat. Eusebius and St. Jeromestrengthen this view (Onomasticon, s.v.), while Cyril of Alexandria appears to indicate a different place; early Jewish tradition denied the reality of this valley. Subsequently to the fourth century, Christians, Jews and Muslims regard Cedron as the place of the Last Judgment. What has lent colour to this popular belief is the fact that since the time of the kings of Judah, Cedron has been the principal necropolis of Jerusalem. Josias scattered upon the tombs of the children of Israel the ashes of the idol of the goddess Astarte which he burned in Cedron (2 Kings 23:4).

'It was in Cedron that the Tomb of Absalom with its "hand" was set up, and the monument of St. James and of Zachary. The ornamental facade of the tomb said to be that of Josaphat has been completely walled up by the Jews, who have their cemeteries on the flanks of the Valley of Cedron. They wish to stand in the first rank on the day when God shall appear in the Valley of Josaphat.

'The designation of a Valley of Jehoshaphat is applied as a specific toponym for the first time by the pilgrim of Bordeaux, in 333. Since then it has become a general designation for the Kidron Valley, between Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives, which is repeatedly mentioned in the Old Testament and the New, under its own name.

'Many Christians[citation needed] believe that the Last Judgment will be held in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, interpreting the passage in the book of Joel:

I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. (KJV)'

And, Joel 3 is an important piece of the puzzle for this discussion:

Joel 3:1-16 (KJV)

1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with (judge) them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border. 7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

And, there's another passage that talks about this judgment:

Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand (near the Eastern Gate), but the goats on the left (near the Valley of Hinnom).
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It's important that one understand that these are judgments for or against NATIONS, not individuals! Also, one should note that, although the sentence is dire against the "goats," this "departing of the cursed from the Messiah into everlasting fire" does NOT happen immediately! There are no angels mentioned "throwing them into everlasting fire" here. That was mentioned in Matthew 13:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

That happens AFTER the Millennium when the Messiah turns over the Empire to His Father.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KiwiChristian · February 2, 2018

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, KiwiChristian.

Wikipedia gives us the following about the etymology of the word "hell":

'The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (about 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period, and ultimately from Proto-Germanic *halja, meaning "one who covers up or hides something"[1] The word has cognates in Latin (see verb cēlō, "to hide") and in related Germanic languages such as Old Frisian helle, hille, Old Saxon hellja, Middle Dutch helle (modern Dutch hel), Old High German helle (Modern German Hölle), Danish, Norwegian and Swedish helvede/helvete (hel + Old Norse vitti, "punishment" whence the Icelandic víti "hell"), and Gothic halja.[1] Subsequently, the word was used to transfer a pagan concept to Christian theology and its vocabulary[1] (however, for the Judeo-Christian origin of the concept see Gehenna).

'Some have theorized that English word hell is derived from Old Norse hel.[1]However, this is very unlikely as hel appears in Old English before the Viking invasions. Furthermore, the word has cognates in all the other Germanic languages and has a Proto-Germanic origin.[2] Among other sources, the Poetic Edda, compiled from earlier traditional sources in the 13th century, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, provide information regarding the beliefs of the Norse pagans, including a being named Hel, who is described as ruling over an underworld location of the same name.'

Following their lead to look up "Gehenna,"...

'Gehenna (/ɡɪˈhɛnə/; גיא בן הינום‬ Ancient Greek: γέεννα) from the Hebrew Gehinnom (Rabbinical: גהנום‬/גהנם‬) is a small valley in Jerusalem. In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire.[1] Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[2]

'In Rabbinic literature and Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[3] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, although the King James Version of the Bible usually translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

'In the King James Version of the Bible, the term appears 13 times in 11 different verses as Valley of Hinnom, Valley of the son of Hinnom or Valley of the children of Hinnom.

'The Valley of Hinnom is the modern name for the valley surrounding Jerusalem's Old City, including Mount Zion, from the west and south. It meets and merges with the Kidron Valley, the other principal valley around the Old City, near the southeastern corner of the city.'

It's etymology is described:

English "Gehenna" represents the Greek Ge'enna (γέεννα) found in the New Testament, a phonetic transcription of Aramaic Gēhannā (ܓܗܢܐ),equivalent to the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, literally "Valley of Hinnom".

This was known in the Old Testament as Gei Ben-Hinnom,[4] literally the "Valley of the son of Hinnom",[5] and in the Talmud as גהנם‬ Gehinnam or גהנום‬ Gehinnom.

There is a LITERAL PLACE called "Gei-Hinnom" in Jerusalem, Israel; one can go there today! It's Global coordinates are 31^o 46’ 6.262” N by 35^o 13’ 49.58” E. One can use most mapping programs, such as Google Earth, to locate it.

The valley on the EAST side of Jerusalem was known as the Valley of Jehoshafat (or the Kidron Valley):

'The Valley of Josaphat (variants: Valley of Jehoshaphat and Valley of Yehoshephat) is a Biblical place mentioned by name in Joel 3:2 and Joel 3:12: "I will gather together all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Josaphat: "Then I will enter into judgment with them there", on behalf of my people and for My inheritance Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations and they have divided up My land."; "Let the nations be roused; Let the nations be aroused And come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side". This location is also referred to as the Valley of Decision.

'By one interpretation, this describes the place where, in the presence of Josaphat, King of Judah, YHVH annihilated the Gentile coalition of Moab, Ammon and Edom. This may have indicated an actual valley euphemistically called by the Jewsêmêq Berâkâh ("valley of blessing"), situated in the desert of Teqo'a near Khirbet Berêkût, west of the Khirbet Teqû'a (about eleven miles from Jerusalem). Alternatively, it may refer to an indeterminate valley of judgment, since "Josaphat" means "YHVH judges". In Joel 3:14 the same valley is called "valley of destruction" (A. V. "valley of decision"). The chapter in question describes how the nations that afflicted Judah and Jerusalem during their Babylonian captivity and return from exile shall receive Divine Judgment.[1]

'In the fourth century, in the Bordeaux itinerary, the Cedron takes the name of Valley of Josaphat. Eusebius and St. Jeromestrengthen this view (Onomasticon, s.v.), while Cyril of Alexandria appears to indicate a different place; early Jewish tradition denied the reality of this valley. Subsequently to the fourth century, Christians, Jews and Muslims regard Cedron as the place of the Last Judgment. What has lent colour to this popular belief is the fact that since the time of the kings of Judah, Cedron has been the principal necropolis of Jerusalem. Josias scattered upon the tombs of the children of Israel the ashes of the idol of the goddess Astarte which he burned in Cedron (2 Kings 23:4).

'It was in Cedron that the Tomb of Absalom with its "hand" was set up, and the monument of St. James and of Zachary. The ornamental facade of the tomb said to be that of Josaphat has been completely walled up by the Jews, who have their cemeteries on the flanks of the Valley of Cedron. They wish to stand in the first rank on the day when God shall appear in the Valley of Josaphat.

'The designation of a Valley of Jehoshaphat is applied as a specific toponym for the first time by the pilgrim of Bordeaux, in 333. Since then it has become a general designation for the Kidron Valley, between Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives, which is repeatedly mentioned in the Old Testament and the New, under its own name.

'Many Christians[citation needed] believe that the Last Judgment will be held in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, interpreting the passage in the book of Joel:

I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. (KJV)'

And, Joel 3 is an important piece of the puzzle for this discussion:

Joel 3:1-16 (KJV)

1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with (judge) them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border. 7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

And, there's another passage that talks about this judgment:

Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand (near the Eastern Gate), but the goats on the left (near the Valley of Hinnom).
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It's important that one understand that these are judgments for or against NATIONS, not individuals! Also, one should note that, although the sentence is dire against the "goats," this "departing of the cursed from the Messiah into everlasting fire" does NOT happen immediately! There are no angels mentioned "throwing them into everlasting fire" here. That was mentioned in Matthew 13:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

That happens AFTER the Millennium when the Messiah turns over the Empire to His Father.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

You know, we can get so caught up on peripheral things we lose sight of what is important.

We are debating over a WORD.

The Bible is clear whether you want to use the English word "hell" or not, there IS an everlasting, eternal punishment for those who reject Jesus.

Lets turn out attention back to this.

Retrobyter · February 2, 2018

1 hour ago, KiwiChristian said:

You know, we can get so caught up on peripheral things we lose sight of what is important.

We are debating over a WORD.

The Bible is clear whether you want to use the English word "hell" or not, there IS an everlasting, eternal punishment for those who reject Jesus.

Lets turn out attention back to this.

Shalom, KiwiChristian.

Nope. You've missed the point.

First, let me assuage your misgivings: I DO BELIEVE STRONGLY in a Lake of Fire! "Hell" is just the wrong word for it, although it is probably that to which the word "Hell" refers.

When the Greek word "gehenna" is used, it is talking about the NEGATIVE RESULTS (the GOATS) FROM THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF THE MESSIAH AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MILLENNIUM, NOT the Great White Throne Judgment at its END! It's a NATIONAL judgment, not an INDIVIDUAL judgment! Thus, it determines whether a person is considered a member of a particular nation that is a friend to Israel or a foe! It determines whether that nation can be annexed as an ally or must be conquered as an adversary; however, we should rest assured that it SHALL become eventually a part of the Messiah's Worldwide Empire that He builds for His Father throughout the thousand years to follow.

Thus, the word "Hell" is just too nebulous to distinguish between the two.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Retrobyter
to state clearly when the annexation will occur

KiwiChristian · February 2, 2018

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, KiwiChristian.

Nope. You've missed the point.

First, let me assuage your misgivings: I DO BELIEVE STRONGLY in a Lake of Fire! "Hell" is just the wrong word for it, although it is probably that to which the word "Hell" refers.

When the Greek word "gehenna" is used, it is talking about the NEGATIVE RESULTS (the GOATS) FROM THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF THE MESSIAH AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MILLENNIUM, NOT the Great White Throne Judgment at its END! It's a NATIONAL judgment, not an INDIVIDUAL judgment! Thus, it determines whether a person is considered a member of a particular nation that is a friend to Israel or a foe! It determines whether that nation can be annexed as an ally or must be conquered as an adversary; however, we should rest assured that it SHALL become eventually a part of the Messiah's Worldwide Empire that He builds for His Father throughout the thousand years to follow.

Thus, the word "Hell" is just too nebulous to distinguish between the two.

then lets stop wasting time over one word!

time is short and we must warn people of this punishment if hey reject Jesus.

Retrobyter · February 3, 2018

9 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

then lets stop wasting time over one word!

time is short and we must warn people of this punishment if they reject Jesus.

Shabbat shalom, KiwiChristian.

Who says I'm not?! ON THE OTHER HAND, you need to know what you're talking about when you "warn people!" There's time enough to do it the RIGHT way! Many have wasted - oh! - so much time by teaching things that the Bible did NOT say!

Do you know the legend behind the invention of chess, the board game?

The wheat and chessboard problem (sometimes expressed in terms of rice grains) is a mathematical problem expressed in textual form as:

"If a chessboard were to have wheat placed upon each square such that one grain were placed on the first square, two on the second, four on the third, and so on (doubling the number of grains on each subsequent square), how many grains of wheat would be on the chessboard at the finish?"

The problem may be solved using simple addition. With 64 squares on a chessboard, if the number of grains doubles on successive squares, then the sum of grains on all 64 squares is: 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... and so forth for the 64 squares. The total number of grains equals 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 (the 64th Mersenne number), much higher than what most intuitively expect.

The problem appears in different stories about the invention of chess. One of them includes the geometric progression problem. The story is first known to have been recorded in 1256 by Ibn Khallikan.[1] Another version has the inventor of chess (in some tellings Sessa, an ancient Indian Minister) request his ruler give him wheat according to the wheat and chessboard problem. The ruler laughs it off as a meager prize for a brilliant invention, only to have court treasurers report the unexpectedly huge number of wheat grains would outstrip the ruler's resources. Versions differ as to whether the inventor becomes a high-ranking advisor or is executed.[2]

The doubling effect can show how the whole world can be evangelized in a short amount of time:

If each Christian just won one other person a year, the whole world can be evangelized in 33 years from just ONE Christian!

If we start with the 2.19 BILLION Christians reported in the world, the world population of 7.6 BILLION people could be reached in a little over ONE year!

If only one tenth of that 2.19 BILLION "Christians" were "born again," the world could still be reached in 5 years!

And, all of this is if one just wins ONE person a YEAR! Obviously, that rate could be increased!

Compound this information with the Scriptures:

2 Peter 3:8-9 (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So, the whole world could EASILY be won in no time! Yes, we should be diligent to share the message of God's love for and justification of sinners, but NOT to the exclusion of God's TRUTH! And, it is just WRONG to badger those you teach into a frenzy, as though that will help matters!

Blind urgency can NEVER replace the Holy Spirit's POWER and God's UNDYING PATIENCE! One needs to TRUST that God LOVES the sinners and KNOWS IF AND WHEN one will trust in Him. One needs to remember Paul's words to the Galatians:

Galatians 3:1-5 (KJV)

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Don't work so hard that your work is done in the FLESH! TRUST - RELY upon - God to "save" those whom He chooses! Do your part, and always be ready to give an answer to those who ask, but let GOD'S work be GOD'S work!

KiwiChristian · February 3, 2018

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, KiwiChristian.

Who says I'm not?! ON THE OTHER HAND, you need to know what you're talking about when you "warn people!" There's time enough to do it the RIGHT way! Many have wasted - oh! - so much time by teaching things that the Bible did NOT say!

Do you know the legend behind the invention of chess, the board game?

The wheat and chessboard problem (sometimes expressed in terms of rice grains) is a mathematical problem expressed in textual form as:

"If a chessboard were to have wheat placed upon each square such that one grain were placed on the first square, two on the second, four on the third, and so on (doubling the number of grains on each subsequent square), how many grains of wheat would be on the chessboard at the finish?"

The problem may be solved using simple addition. With 64 squares on a chessboard, if the number of grains doubles on successive squares, then the sum of grains on all 64 squares is: 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... and so forth for the 64 squares. The total number of grains equals 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 (the 64th Mersenne number), much higher than what most intuitively expect.

The problem appears in different stories about the invention of chess. One of them includes the geometric progression problem. The story is first known to have been recorded in 1256 by Ibn Khallikan.[1] Another version has the inventor of chess (in some tellings Sessa, an ancient Indian Minister) request his ruler give him wheat according to the wheat and chessboard problem. The ruler laughs it off as a meager prize for a brilliant invention, only to have court treasurers report the unexpectedly huge number of wheat grains would outstrip the ruler's resources. Versions differ as to whether the inventor becomes a high-ranking advisor or is executed.[2]

The doubling effect can show how the whole world can be evangelized in a short amount of time:

If each Christian just won one other person a year, the whole world can be evangelized in 33 years from just ONE Christian!

If we start with the 2.19 BILLION Christians reported in the world, the world population of 7.6 BILLION people could be reached in a little over ONE year!

If only one tenth of that 2.19 BILLION "Christians" were "born again," the world could still be reached in 5 years!

And, all of this is if one just wins ONE person a YEAR! Obviously, that rate could be increased!

Compound this information with the Scriptures:

2 Peter 3:8-9 (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So, the whole world could EASILY be won in no time! Yes, we should be diligent to share the message of God's love for and justification of sinners, but NOT to the exclusion of God's TRUTH! And, it is just WRONG to badger those you teach into a frenzy, as though that will help matters!

Blind urgency can NEVER replace the Holy Spirit's POWER and God's UNDYING PATIENCE! One needs to TRUST that God LOVES the sinners and KNOWS IF AND WHEN one will trust in Him. One needs to remember Paul's words to the Galatians:

Galatians 3:1-5 (KJV)

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Don't work so hard that your work is done in the FLESH! TRUST - RELY upon - God to "save" those whom He chooses! Do your part, and always be ready to give an answer to those who ask, but let GOD'S work be GOD'S work!

i give up.

God bless.

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