Catholic Idolatry

[Mishael]

5 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

That is a complete lie, my friend.

 

Please list them. 40,000.

 

Please note that the NAME of a building does NOT name a "denomination".

 

Also, dont forget there are many catholic "sects" or "denominations".

And, this thread is NOT about the sole authority of the Bible, but on idolatry.

I can't name you about four here, Lutherns, Baptist, Anglicanism, Calvinism, Pentecostalism, Methodism, and many more. I'm not Catholic, but I know all Catholics wheather. There are many Catholic rites not separate Churches since all of them are in communion with the see of Rome and are government by the Pope.

[KiwiChristian]

30 minutes ago, Mishael said:

I can't name you about four here, Lutherns, Baptist, Anglicanism, Calvinism, Pentecostalism, Methodism, and many more. I'm not Catholic, but I know all Catholics wheather. There are many Catholic rites not separate Churches since all of them are in communion with the see of Rome and are government by the Pope.

Yeah, heard that nonsense before. they are not seperate denominations because they are in communion with the pope.

 

Well, i could say many Christian "sects" are in communion with Christ.

 

 

[KiwiChristian]

31 minutes ago, Mishael said:

I can't name you about four here, Lutherns, Baptist, Anglicanism, Calvinism, Pentecostalism, Methodism, and many more. I'm not Catholic, but I know all Catholics wheather. There are many Catholic rites not separate Churches since all of them are in communion with the see of Rome and are government by the Pope.

Also, you ought to be able to back up your statements.

 

if you say there are 40,000, you ought to be able to PROVE it.

Anyhow, back on topic, huh?

 

[Chi]

1 hour ago, KiwiChristian said:

 

Anyhow, back on topic, huh?

 

Good job at keeping the thread on track. (I mean this in a non condescending way and I admire it) 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Chi

[Mishael]

1 hour ago, KiwiChristian said:

Yeah, heard that nonsense before. they are not seperate denominations because they are in communion with the pope.

 

Well, i could say many Christian "sects" are in communion with Christ.

 

 

All agree to the basic tenants of the Catholic Church and its traditions. Each Protestant denomination has its own interpretation of the Gospel and its own traditions there is no unity at all. If a Luthern says I need to be baptized as an infant to be saved but then a Baptist tells me that infant baptism means nothing, this is only one of the various differences between two Protestant sects.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Mishael

[KiwiChristian]

1 hour ago, Chi said:

Good job at keeping the thread on track. (I mean this in a non condescending way and I admire it) 

Thanks.

 

It is one of my pet "hates". going off-topic.

 

When people cannot refute FACTS, they will either attack the person and/or divert attention away from the topic.

[KiwiChristian]

30 minutes ago, Mishael said:

All agree to the basic tenants of the Catholic Church and its traditions. Each Protestant denomination has its own interpretation of the Gospel and its own traditions there is no unity at all. If a Luthern says I need to be baptized as an infant to be saved but then a Baptist tells me that infant baptism means nothing, this is only one of the various differences between two Protestant sects.

Not entirely true.

 

What YOU would call "protestant" will nearly always agree on who is Jesus and what did He do. ie: the Gospel.

 

Now, back on topic. IDOLATRY.

 

Exodus 20:4,5 couldn't be any clearer that even BOWING down to a statue is idolatry.  Yet, Catholics foolishly claim that they are not worshipping the statues they are bowing down to.  BUT, God forbids us from even bowing to statues.  In fact, the Bible is so clear on this matter that the Vatican has even REMOVED the second of the Ten Commandments to deceive you.  

Exodus20:4-5. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."  Vs5 "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God." Isaiah 42:8 "I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."
 

[Mishael]

4 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

Not entirely true.

 

What YOU would call "protestant" will nearly always agree on who is Jesus and what did He do. ie: the Gospel.

 

Now, back on topic. IDOLATRY.

 

Exodus 20:4,5 couldn't be any clearer that even BOWING down to a statue is idolatry.  Yet, Catholics foolishly claim that they are not worshipping the statues they are bowing down to.  BUT, God forbids us from even bowing to statues.  In fact, the Bible is so clear on this matter that the Vatican has even REMOVED the second of the Ten Commandments to deceive you.  

Exodus20:4-5. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."  Vs5 "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God." Isaiah 42:8 "I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."
 

I'm not a Catholic so the Ten Commandments are their problem. The Incarnation is a game-changer. Christ made visible the invisible God, and thus it is allowed that images of Him be depicted. Icons depict real people. The second commandment protects us from creating fantastical creatures that replace the true God. Icons depict real people and events that draw us to the true God. Worship and veneration are not the same. Worshiping an idol is the equivalent of replacing God with a created thing (or ideology or passion). Venerating an icon is an act of respect and love that glorifies the Creator (sort of like saluting to a soldier is an act of respect and honor that shows your loyalty to your country). God instructed Moses to create images. Just in case anyone thought God’s commandment to Moses excluded all visual images of anything as idols, check out Exodus 36:35-37:9 where, per the instructions of God, Moses has images of cherubim embroidered into the curtains of the tabernacle and statues of the same cast for the Ark of the Covenant.

[Mishael]

So you shall not make an image in order to bow down to them. But, for what purpose? We have already seen that bowing was context sensitive, and we know that the Israelites had many images in their temple. It specifically says that you shall not bow down in order to serve them, that is, over and above God. It is because this would take the place of God that God indicates that He is a jealous God who will not have other gods before Him, as He clearly states in the first commandment. 

So, for the veneration of images to violate the second commandment, it would have to: 1. Be an image of some type, 2. We would have to bow to it, 3. We would bow to it in order to serve it, 4. And to serve it as a god, to supersede God. Thus, it would turn into worship and break the second commandment. Veneration of the Saints through their images only applies to 2 of the 4 qualifications, thus it is not worship of the Saint or the Icon, nor does it break the second commandment. It seems the real concern of those who hesitate at this point is that they are afraid that if they bow to an Icon and kiss it, that they might find themselves someday falling into worship rather than just veneration and honor. Like one day they would wake up and realize that all this time they had been worshiping Mary instead of just giving her honor. The truth of the matter is that you simply cannot accidently worship an Icon. Worship is intentionally giving veneration to a god. As long as that god  is the God, then you have nothing to worry about. No one can accidentally worship a Saint. Worship is a purposefull activity and you do it on purpose and with intent. 

Let's take the Protestant problem of Bibliolatry for instance. Some Protestant groups and people have been charged with worshiping the Bible. In some of the cases, that may actually be true, I don't know. But in most cases, if you were to ask such people who seemed to come across that way whether they believed that the Bible was a god or not, they would naturally tell you no. So strictly speaking, such people would not be worshiping the Bible even if they placed undue attention and emphasis on it to the point of seeming to go overboard. Rather, they say they would hold the Bible in such high esteem because it is through the Bible that they know who God is, who Christ is, and the whole revelation of God. Thus, it is important to them. As long as those Protestants do not view the Bible itself as a god, nor do they understand it to be pointing to some other god than the one in it's pages, then they are not worshiping it.

[KiwiChristian]

On 4/14/2018 at 1:18 AM, Mishael said:

 Christ made visible the invisible God, and thus it is allowed that images of Him be depicted. 

 

NOWHERE in the context can you come to that interpretation. Again, it VIOLATES what the Bible says.

 

On 4/14/2018 at 1:18 AM, Mishael said:

Icons depict real people. The second commandment protects us from creating fantastical creatures that replace the true God. Icons depict real people and events that draw us to the true God. 

No, the second commandment says NOTHING about "fantastical creatures that replace the true God"

 

Lets look at it AGAIN.

 

Exodus20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."  

On 4/14/2018 at 1:18 AM, Mishael said:

 

Worship and veneration are not the same. 

yeah, word games.

catholics re-interpret the word "worship" to try and justify their sin.

 

On 4/14/2018 at 1:18 AM, Mishael said:

 

Worshiping an idol is the equivalent of replacing God with a created thing (or ideology or passion). Venerating an icon is an act of respect and love that glorifies the Creator (sort of like saluting to a soldier is an act of respect and honor that shows your loyalty to your country). 

I see your point. I see your own interpretations.

On 4/14/2018 at 1:18 AM, Mishael said:

 

God instructed Moses to create images. Just in case anyone thought God’s commandment to Moses excluded all visual images of anything as idols, check out Exodus 36:35-37:9 where, per the instructions of God, Moses has images of cherubim embroidered into the curtains of the tabernacle and statues of the same cast for the Ark of the Covenant.

sigh. Do you actually READ the Bible? 

 

Thou shalt not make UNTO THEE. Don't make them off your own back.

 

God DID specifically command CERTAIN statues to be made. Were they worshipped? No, were they bowed down to? No. Were the cerebrum on the ark of the covenant bowed down to or worshipped? No. Moses' brass snake was to demonstrate Gods healing power, so the people would know that their healing was from God and not just a coincidence, as you well know. Show me where God SPECIFICALLY commands us to make images of Mary and the pope and/or to bow to them? The Bible says not to make unto thee any images. If a person makes a statue or image of mary, angels, etc. then God has NOT commanded them to do that, so it is a sin.