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Last Daze

The Measuring of the Temple

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6 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I disagree with this to at least a limited degree, insofar as we are only told that this person demands worship after the abomination is committed. The mark itself is concurrent with this worship. If he is already demanding worship in the first half of the week, there would be no israeli remnant to flee to the wilderness (chapter 12) because they would all be dead already for refusing the mark. I agree that these two are almost certainly very active in the first half of the week and probably even before, but we also know that a covenant is confirmed with Israel by the beast specifically to begin the first week and that there is a temple in (at least part) the first half of the week where sacrifices are occurring that are *not* for the beast. We know that when the abomination occurs, Christ orders those in Judea to flee, which means that before this point there is no necessity of fleeing. If he were demanding worldwide worship and executing anyone unwilling to do so at this point, the necessity for flight would've seemingly been long before this.

True. And we don't disagree here at all. I gave a broad statement which stems from the above, which is scriptural.

6 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I tend to believe that once the mark is taken and these people become part of the collective who worships the anti-Christ, there is no hope for repentance from them (I believe this because they are condemned to eternal damnation at this point explicitly, which has already been discussed).

I understand. Seems we will have to wait and see. The questions remains; "And the nations of them which are saved..." Where do these 'ethnos' come from?

6 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I would say this point is moot because I believe that it would be impossible to fear, worship, and give glory to God once you have taken the mark and declared for the anti-Christ. The third angel gives an explicit warning on what happens to those who take the mark. I'm not sure what purpose such a warning would serve were it to be given after the mark has already been enacted and taken by all who will take it.

You may be right. Still leaves the question concerning Rev 21:24. 

In what form do you think the mark of the beast manifests? RFID? Tattoo? Spiritually? Something else?

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6 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I disagree with this to at least a limited degree, insofar as we are only told that this person demands worship after the abomination is committed. The mark itself is concurrent with this worship. If he is already demanding worship in the first half of the week, there would be no israeli remnant to flee to the wilderness (chapter 12) because they would all be dead already for refusing the mark. I agree that these two are almost certainly very active in the first half of the week and probably even before, but we also know that a covenant is confirmed with Israel by the beast specifically to begin the first week and that there is a temple in (at least part) the first half of the week where sacrifices are occurring that are *not* for the beast. We know that when the abomination occurs, Christ orders those in Judea to flee, which means that before this point there is no necessity of fleeing. If he were demanding worldwide worship and executing anyone unwilling to do so at this point, the necessity for flight would've seemingly been long before this.

...

 

Shalom, Steve_S.

One can see from your position above how the various points dovetail together to form a fabric of eschatology, the branch of theology referring to prophecy and end-time events.

You're statement, "We know that when the abomination occurs, Christ orders those in Judea to flee, which means that before this point there is no necessity of fleeing," tells me that you don't believe that the abomination of desolation has already occurred and that the Messiah's orders to flee to the mountains has not already been fulfilled. But, what if these points already HAVE BEEN FULFILLED? Wouldn't that mean that you'd have to pull those pegs out of your pegboard of eschatology?

It's always good to go back to the Scriptures and test one's theories against the backdrop of the concrete prophecies:

The Olivet Discourse (in which both the abomination of desolation is foretold and the Messiah's orders were written) is found in three of the four "Gospels," the "Synoptic Gospels," Matthew 24 (and 25), Mark 13, and Luke 21.

I wish I could show them to you side by side, but the text editor prevents that (at least, from my perspective); however, I can show them beneath each other. Just remember they have EQUAL WEIGHT when it comes to revealing Yeshua`s words: (Colors, this time, will be used to identify synonymous phrases.)

Matthew 24:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Mark 13:

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

 

 

Luke 21:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

My claim is simple: All these were fulfilled during the First Century A.D., particularly in and around 70 A.D. We are currently IN the "times of the Gentiles" when Jerusalem is "trodden down of the Gentiles." The "great tribulation" which is also characterized by "affliction", "vengeance," "great distress" and "wrath upon this people (the children of Israel, particularly the Jews)" started in the PAST and has been going on for CENTURIES!

It's in the NEXT paragraphs that we find hope:

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven (where it meets the earth) to the other (where it dissipates into space).

Mark 13:

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

All these things were foretold by the Master. Different listeners focused on different things, but together, they give us the totality of what the Messiah Yeshua` said. These later paragraphs are about the FUTURE when our Master finally returns.

Hope this helps.

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17 hours ago, Diaste said:

I understand. Seems we will have to wait and see. The questions remains; "And the nations of them which are saved..." Where do these 'ethnos' come from?

Revelation 21 is addressing the new heavens and earth. This is not inhabited by anyone who has taken the mark, or anyone else who is not saved.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

In what form do you think the mark of the beast manifests? RFID? Tattoo? Spiritually? Something else?

Well, it's certainly indicative of a spiritual state, so i believe that box is checked to be sure, but I don't believe it is *only* spiritual. I think it's always helpful to take a look at the scriptures regarding it.

Rev 13:16  He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads
Rev 13:17  and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

In this case, it would appear to be a tattoo of some sort, a physical mark. I don't generally view scripture allegorically unless the scripture itself gives us reason to and in this case, I certainly do not believe it does, insofar as it is pretty explicit - it's going to be a mark, his name, or the number of his name. I tend to view this sort of like a cattle brand.

Having said all that and stating once again that I believe there will be a physical mark, I certainly would not rule a technological component that is involved in taking the mark, be that RFID or some even newer or as yet undeveloped technology. This would certainly make sense in light of the prophecies regarding buying or selling.

So, in short, it is almost certainly two of those options (physical mark which is an outward expression of a spiritual condition) and could be all three (meaning it could possibly include a technological component).

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On 11/23/2018 at 10:16 PM, Steve_S said:

 

Well, it's certainly indicative of a spiritual state, so i believe that box is checked to be sure, but I don't believe it is *only* spiritual. I think it's always helpful to take a look at the scriptures regarding it.

Rev 13:16  He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads
Rev 13:17  and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

In this case, it would appear to be a tattoo of some sort, a physical mark. I don't generally view scripture allegorically unless the scripture itself gives us reason to and in this case, I certainly do not believe it does, insofar as it is pretty explicit - it's going to be a mark, his name, or the number of his name. I tend to view this sort of like a cattle brand.

Having said all that and stating once again that I believe there will be a physical mark, I certainly would not rule a technological component that is involved in taking the mark, be that RFID or some even newer or as yet undeveloped technology. This would certainly make sense in light of the prophecies regarding buying or selling.

So, in short, it is almost certainly two of those options (physical mark which is an outward expression of a spiritual condition) and could be all three (meaning it could possibly include a technological component).

I see. I'm more dogmatic on this.

We are going to see real power like never before.

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4 hours ago, Diaste said:

We are going to see real power like never before.

How so?

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21 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

How so?

Many think the rise of the beast is coming through politics, well mainly politics, but I have to adhere to Rev 13. The rise of the beast is in supernatural power from the onset. The world is in awe from the head wound that was healed, not slick oratory or sartorial splendor, or nice hair. Based on the resurrection from the dead, possession, doesn't matter, still back from the dead, the world wonders after the beast and asks the question, which is rhetorical, and one must consider then, if the world wonders who can make war with the beast, he must demonstrate great power as the world contains 3 giant superpowers.

His propaganda arm deceives the world by signs and wonders, even calling fire down from heaven. Maybe this is all high tech holograms, seen some pretty wild stuff on that front, and we would be a decade behind the military capabilities so I have to allow the possibility; but I don't believe the dragon is apt to rely on tech to accomplish his ends, seeing the power wielded prior to this.

Ancient archaeology also holds clues. Advanced civilizations flourished long before the modern age outstripping our current knowledge and abilities. The story goes, ancient people received such things from the gods. If they could do more with this greater knowledge and far less 'tech' imagine the things we'll see when the dragon has permission to conquer.

That was kinda quick, suppers cooking....

 

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man...interesting conversation and I am sincerely enjoying the "tone" as well.   Maybe this thread should be held up as an example of Godly discussion, discussing topics, not attacking positions :)   I'll hush now til I have something relevant to the subject matter :)  Rock on....

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On 1/23/2019 at 5:45 PM, Jostler said:

man...interesting conversation and I am sincerely enjoying the "tone" as well.   Maybe this thread should be held up as an example of Godly discussion, discussing topics, not attacking positions :)   I'll hush now til I have something relevant to the subject matter :)  Rock on....

Thanks for posting this subject, and yes it's is interesting. But it astounds me how one can take the Olivet Discourse Matthew 24:1-34,  and chop it up to little pieces of double and triple implications in a world thousands of years after it was penned.

Instead of leaving the prediction in the first century where it belongs. And coming up with multiple interpretation, unrelated to each other, of the words of Christ when He said, "I tell you the truth, "this generation" will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened"

I thought this article was interesting on the temple verses of the two witnesses. I'm sure this conclusion came up in the post.

"Additional evidence that Jesus is the two witnesses is found in the Gospels.  In John 12:49-50 Jesus says, “For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. . . .   So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”  In John 8:13-18 Jesus echoes John 12:49-50 while calling attention to the fact that because He speaks the words of the Father His testimony is that of two witnesses.  John 8:13-18 reads,

“The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”  Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. . . .   But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.  I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me"

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