Romans 3:11-18

[Guest PistosHuios]

I'm spinning this off of a 20 page Free Will discussion that ended abrubtly when I asked this question...

"how does a Romans 3:11-18 person choose Christ, without some sort of work of the Holy Spirit to aid him in that decision?"

Because the question went unanswered I'm asking it again, and maybe I'll get some response.

Again, I prefer your opinion as opposed to "back and Forth" talk in order to keep from getting out of hand, and to avoid 20 page discussions.

--P.S. please Read the passage prior to posting

---Added----

Funny, I guess this may be more a spinoff of my head than of the Free Will discussion. I thought I asked this question in there and Got no response? ? Anyway, it's a question that I have yet to have a good, Biblical explanation to so I will ask it anyway.

Edited April 22, 2005 by PistosHuios

[Gerioke]

mat 20: 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

mat 22: 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Looks to me like God does the choosing

[WayneB]

I never read the other thread so I only have your opening post to go by but it is simple I think.

It is ALL His work... Salvation, Sanctification...all of it.

BUT it is up to us whether or not we listen to HIS Voice. He calls us but we must respond.

John 10

  1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

  2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

  3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

  4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

  5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

  6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

  7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

  8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

  9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

  10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

  11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

  12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

  13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

  14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

  15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

  16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

  17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

  18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

[J.C.]

I'm spinning this off of a 20 page Free Will discussion that ended abrubtly when I asked this question...

"how does a Romans 3:11-18 person choose Christ, without some sort of work of the Holy Spirit to aid him in that decision?"

Because the question went unanswered I'm asking it again, and maybe I'll get some response.

Edited April 22, 2005 by J.C.

[EricH]

The simplest reply would be that it is God who gives them the ability to choose Him

[WayneB]

The simplest reply would be that it is God who gives them the ability to choose Him

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly! ...which is why Paul said, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Grace --- His work / Faith --- our response

[EricH]

The fact that the Psalm is addressing the unsaved does not prove anything. That is exactly the point Paul is trying to make: namely that apart from Christ, all are under the rule of sin. The question is how can a person go from being an unbeliever to a believer. The crux of the argument is whether an unregenerant person can make a spritual decision (or even see their own depravity) apart form an intervening work of God. Can people make a choice -- yes! But only if God opens their eyes and enables them to do so.

Paul actually goes on later in Romans to show that humans are born into this condition through Adam. They were not born in innocence and then turned to sin. They were born in sin and choose to act out sin and unbelief because of their sin nature.

[EricH]

I think we agree to a point, but I also hold to irresistable grace (namely that God not only opens the eyes of a person, He also calls them in an irresistable way). Thus when God calls, the response of the one called is guaranteed. This does not mean that the person does not make a willing choice to receive the gospel, but it does mean that it is God who made them aware of their need for the choice, enabled the choice, and guaranteed that the choice would be made

[BigJer]

Here is the reference in question:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17And the way of peace have they not known: 18There is no fear of God before their eyes.  The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

This passage is pointing to the Jewish Christian and saying that they are no better than the gentile christian. This passage was proof that the Jew, even though he was given the law is in no better shape than the gentile, as stated earlier in the chapter:

9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Of course, it helps to understand this when Paul himself states it right after verse 18:

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

[other one]

2 Peter 3:9-10

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

NASB

The Lord does not wish anyone to perish, I believe it is true that we must be called to Him, but He calls all, not just some predicted few. He calls all and we decide whether or not to follow. There is free will in that we choose to follow His call or not, and it is his wishes that all come. That is the free will. We can not save ourselves but it is only Him that can do that, but only if we allow Him to.

And that is where the free will comes into play. It may be that he knows how we will react and who will receive him, but He did not make any of us choose Him, but has given all the oppertunity to.

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