I've changed my mind. I now believe the "earth" is 6k years old

[Neighbor]

"I now believe the "earth" is 6k years old"

 I can go that. I can also see that  day one a literal day might also have been 15 million years long.

Say what? Yep the motion of universes, the expansion rate of them, and increasing velocity at which objects are still moving apart also points back to a beginning. That beginning does work out to be around 6,000 years ago. But th erate at which  all things were moving (time) is also affected to the point a day a literal day could be 15,000,000 years long.

That is evidently compatible with relativity theories and with measurement of velocity and distance being  recorded.

Dr. Gerald Schroeder does a nice job of presenting it as a theory anyway.

Look up "Big Bang Theory , Dr. Gerald Schroeder" in videos online. They are too long for posting  on WCF. Also there are a few nice interviews of him with Zola Levitt under Zola Levitt  Presents that can be found online.

[coheir]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Since this thread started in 2018, and I haven't read the 13 pages that followed, I'll just jump in here with some observations about what the Bible has to say.

Gen 1:1-2

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Many translations have "And" at the beginning of v.2, to show a continuation from v.1. iow, "in the beginning" the earth was created AND was "formless and empty".

The Septuagint translated the firs word of v.2 as "But", which is a disjunctive in the Hebrew, I'm told.  So rather than a continuation from v.1, we really have a contrast between v.1 and v.2.  So there's that.  Keep in mind the LXX was translated into Koine Greek about 400 BC by Hebrew scholars who spoke both languages fluently.  

Now, can anyone imagine what an earth that is "formless" would look like?  Neither can I.  In fact, every solid object HAS a form, whether irregular or regular.  What no solid object can be is "formless".  That is in fact, impossible.  So right away, it seems the English translators were clueless as to how to translate "tohu", even though there are a number of places in the OT where that word is found, and the translators had no problem translating as "wasteland", "wasteplace", "uninhabitable desert", etc.  

And there is a contradiction with the "regular" translation in v.2 with Isa 45:18.

"For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earthand made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place (tohu), but formed it to be inhabited ), "I am the LORD, and there is none else."

The contradiction:  Gen 1:2 says the earth WAS created tohu.  Isa 45:18 says God did NOT create the earth tohu.

Regardless of how one wants to translate "tohu", one place says the earth WAS created tohu and another place says the earth was NOT created tohu.

Since the LXX translates the first word in v.2 as "but" we know that there is a contrast to consider.

Then, we must look at the word "was", a verb of existence.  In fact, Hebrew lexicons describe this word as "to exist, to become".  The Hebrew word in general is "hayah".  However, the word takes many forms throughout the OT.  In fact, this word occurs some 3,560 times in the different forms.

Thanks to biblehub.com, one can easily search the entire OT regarding a single form of any word in the Hebrew.  That search will reveal about 111 uses of the EXACT SAME FORM as found in Gen 1:2.  In about 70% of the time, that form is translated as either "become" or "became".  In only about 6% of the time, that form is translated as simply "was".

So, when piecing together all these facts, this is how the 2 verses in Gen should be translated:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth, BUT the earth BECAME an UNINHABITABLE WASTELAND.

So, what does all this mean?  The earth is far older than Adam.  It doesn't say how much older, but that is irrelevant.

For the YEC crowd, this is NO defense of evolution.  Rather, it shows that Genesis 1 is about a RESTORATION, rather than original creation, with the exception of v.1.

I categoritically reject any suggestion of evolution, so please don't accuse me of that heresy.

One final fact.  Even the NT supports this, from Heb 11:3.  "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

The word "formed" here is not accurate at all. 

This is a fascinating verse.  The major translations render ‘katartizo’ as “prepared, formed, or framed”.  That is unfortunate, because the word has a significantly different meaning.  It is found 13 times in the NT.

Matt 4:21 and Mark 1:19 used for “mending their nets”

Matt 21:16 used for “perfecting praise out of the mouths of babes”

Luke 6:40 used for “every disciple is not above his master, but one that is perfect shall be like his master”

Rom 9:22 used for “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”

1 Cor 1:10  used for “perfectly joined”

2 Cor 13:11 used for “be perfect”

Gal 6:1 used for “restore such a one with gentleness”

1 Thess 3:10 used for “might perfect that which is lacking in your faith”

Heb 10:5 used for “a body you have prepared Me”

Heb 11:3  used for “worlds were prepared”

Heb 13:21  used for “make you perfect”

1 Pet 5:10  used for “make you perfect”

To "make perfect" is used in an ethical sense.  But Heb 11:3 isn't an ethical use at all.

 

 

Reading Gen 1 I see  in 1:3, God created Light and v4 divided light from darkness.

V8 is second day 

V13 is third day  

V14, God put lights in heaven for  day night seasons years

V15-19 The first time the light was made to shine on earth 

V23 is fifth day

So from V3 to V19  there may not have or needed a 12hour day/12hour night.

The 24 hour clock was not needed til day six.

There is a possibility that 2nd Peter 3:8 taking place

Just some thoughts

Edited February 16, 2023 by coheir
addition

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, coheir said:

Reading Gen 1 I see  in 1:3, God created Light and v4 divided light from darkness.

V8 is second day 

V13 is third day  

V14, God put lights in heaven for  day night seasons years

V15-19 The first time the light was made to shine on earth 

V23 is fifth day

So from V3 to V19  there may not have or needed a 12hour day/12hour night.

The 24 hour clock was not needed til day six.

There is a possibility that 2nd Peter 3:8 taking place

Just some thoughts

What we don't know is what all was created in Gen 1:1.  

What are your thoughts about the Hebrew words in v.2?

[coheir]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What we don't know is what all was created in Gen 1:1.  

What are your thoughts about the Hebrew words in v.2?

I agree with your post. Even though it was without form, and void God imo created in that state. As the Spirit of God moved across the face of the waters He was adding all the building blocks that did not exist to sustain life. And as in Isa 45 He formed it into the Earth with gravity and everything to sustain life. I would think God created from center of earth outward to the crust.

Edited February 17, 2023 by coheir
add

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, coheir said:

I agree with your post. Even though it was without form, and void God imo created in that state. As the Spirit of God moved across the face of the waters He was adding all the building blocks that did not exist to sustain life. And as in Isa 45 He formed it into the Earth with gravity and everything to sustain life. I would think God created from center of earth outward to the crust.

Well, here's the thing.  It is impossible for any solid object (including our round earth) to be "without form".  Simply impossible.

All solid objects have a form, whether irregular or regular.  And in the narrative in chapter 1, there is no mention of giving the earth a form.  

So God created the earth WITH a form.  That's the point.  And the key words in v.2 show that the earth BECAME an uninhabitable wasteland, something that God did not create.

[teddyv]

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, here's the thing.  It is impossible for any solid object (including our round earth) to be "without form".  Simply impossible.

All solid objects have a form, whether irregular or regular.  And in the narrative in chapter 1, there is no mention of giving the earth a form.  

So God created the earth WITH a form.  That's the point.  And the key words in v.2 show that the earth BECAME an uninhabitable wasteland, something that God did not create.

This is most likely a reference to primordial chaos. in ANE cosmology. Not an actual material state of the planet.

[coheir]

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, here's the thing.  It is impossible for any solid object (including our round earth) to be "without form".  Simply impossible.

All solid objects have a form, whether irregular or regular.  And in the narrative in chapter 1, there is no mention of giving the earth a form.  

So God created the earth WITH a form.  That's the point.  And the key words in v.2 show that the earth BECAME an uninhabitable wasteland, something that God did not create.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I think that the word tohu should be translated the same everywhere. regardless whether v2 says and or now clearly there will be a continuation description. Also the author had not see what he was describing.

 

[BeyondET]

On 2/15/2023 at 10:14 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BeyondET.

That's just insane. "Heaven" is "Shaamayim" and it means the "skies!" (Two of them!) It's the earth's atmosphere which is mostly NITROGEN! The earth, "'erets", at least the crust which is where we live and grow plants, is mostly SILICON!

Are you even talking about the same PLANET?!

Gen 1:1 says heavens which pretty much means more than one.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

Gen 1:1 says heavens which pretty much means more than one.

Yes! It's a DUAL word! That's why I said "two of them!" However, they were created that way on Day 2!

See, Hebrew literature frequently begins with a summary of what is to follow, and Genesis 1:1 is the summary of what is found in the rest of the chapter!

[coheir]

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Gen 1:1 says heavens which pretty much means more than one.

2 Corin 12:2

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.