I've changed my mind. I now believe the "earth" is 6k years old

[Roymond]

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

How many can you name?

Francis Collins is the most obvious.  Sy Garte is another.

And the list of Christian biologists who have no problem with evolution would run into the hundreds just from the ones I know of.  Theodosius Dobzhansky comes to mind, and Graham Clarke, Denis Alexander, Darrel Falk, Brian Heap, Robert Bakker, John Gurdon, Juan Martin Maldecena ,Noella Marcellino (a nun scientist, which is pretty awesome), and William Newsome.

Then there were the ones I knew in university in our informal intelligent design club before the YECists hijacked that term to try to deceive the courts.

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The scholars who translated the OT into Koine Greek were far more advanced in both languages than you will ever be.  They spoke Koine before it became a dead language.  Yet here you are, trying to sound smarter than them.

No, I'm explaining what they did -- there's a difference.

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, that's just funny.  You claim the earth is 4.5 billion years old.  And somehow that isn't ancient???   lol

You're the one telling me I don't believe in an ancient Earth, just like you keep making up other things.

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The ONLY thing that is a "theory" is what people claim occurred during the time gap.

I've had enough of this.  I have shown from how key words in Gen 1:2 are translated elsewhere in the OT.  Anyone can do that, but it seems most won't.

No -- the gap never happened.  No one found  "gap" in Genesis until 1814, and it wasn't found, it was purely made up by a guy named Thomas Chalmers who wanted to make the Biblical history fit into the vast ages claimed by uniformitarian geologists.   There were similar proposals off and on through the centuries, but the one thing they had in common was that they were trying to make the Bible fit their personal theories instead of the other way around.

And no, what you've done is push a flight of fancy that does not have the support of the grammar -- period.

You've shown no indication of a willingness to learn, but just in case, here are some things to read:

https://www.gaptheory.net/history-of-the-gap-theory/

https://www.gaptheory.net/the-gap-principle-and-kabbalah-connection/

Also, did you know that some key figures in developing gap theory were racist?  It allowed them to assign creation of all non-whites to before the gap so they could justify considering them less than fully human.  Check out A. J. Ferris's The Conflict of Science and Religion.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Roymond

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Roymond said:

Francis Collins is the most obvious.  Sy Garte is another.

And the list of Christian biologists who have no problem with evolution would run into the hundreds just from the ones I know of.  Theodosius Dobzhansky comes to mind, and Graham Clarke, Denis Alexander, Darrel Falk, Brian Heap, Robert Bakker, John Gurdon, Juan Martin Maldecena ,Noella Marcellino (a nun scientist, which is pretty awesome), and William Newsome.

Then there were the ones I knew in university in our informal intelligent design club before the YECists hijacked that term to try to deceive the courts.

No, I'm explaining what they did -- there's a difference.

You're the one telling me I don't believe in an ancient Earth, just like you keep making up other things.

No -- the gap never happened.  No one found  "gap" in Genesis until 1814, and it wasn't found, it was purely made up by a guy named Thomas Chalmers who wanted to make the Biblical history fit into the vast ages claimed by uniformitarian geologists.   There were similar proposals off and on through the centuries, but the one thing they had in common was that they were trying to make the Bible fit their personal theories instead of the other way around.

And no, what you've done is push a flight of fancy that does not have the support of the grammar -- period.

You've shown no indication of a willingness to learn, but just in case, here are some things to read:

https://www.gaptheory.net/history-of-the-gap-theory/

https://www.gaptheory.net/the-gap-principle-and-kabbalah-connection/

Also, did you know that some key figures in developing gap theory were racist?  It allowed them to assign creation of all non-whites to before the gap so they could justify considering them less than fully human.  Check out A. J. Ferris's The Conflict of Science and Religion.

And there are the non-christian scientists who realise Darwinian evolution isn't scientific.

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, Roymond said:

Francis Collins is the most obvious.  Sy Garte is another.

And the list of Christian biologists who have no problem with evolution would run into the hundreds just from the ones I know of.  Theodosius Dobzhansky comes to mind, and Graham Clarke, Denis Alexander, Darrel Falk, Brian Heap, Robert Bakker, John Gurdon, Juan Martin Maldecena ,Noella Marcellino (a nun scientist, which is pretty awesome), and William Newsome.

Then there were the ones I knew in university in our informal intelligent design club before the YECists hijacked that term to try to deceive the courts.

No, I'm explaining what they did -- there's a difference.

You're the one telling me I don't believe in an ancient Earth, just like you keep making up other things.

No -- the gap never happened.  No one found  "gap" in Genesis until 1814, and it wasn't found, it was purely made up by a guy named Thomas Chalmers who wanted to make the Biblical history fit into the vast ages claimed by uniformitarian geologists.   There were similar proposals off and on through the centuries, but the one thing they had in common was that they were trying to make the Bible fit their personal theories instead of the other way around.

And no, what you've done is push a flight of fancy that does not have the support of the grammar -- period.

You've shown no indication of a willingness to learn, but just in case, here are some things to read:

https://www.gaptheory.net/history-of-the-gap-theory/

https://www.gaptheory.net/the-gap-principle-and-kabbalah-connection/

Also, did you know that some key figures in developing gap theory were racist?  It allowed them to assign creation of all non-whites to before the gap so they could justify considering them less than fully human.  Check out A. J. Ferris's The Conflict of Science and Religion.

Since you do believe the earth is far older than Adam, why do you discount the Hebrew of Gen 1:2 that supports that fact?  Since you reject my view of Gen 1:2, then just how do you explain Gen 1?  I view it as a restoration, except v.1.  I cannot imagine your explanation of a very old earth but reject a time gap between v.1 and 2.

[FreeGrace]

17 hours ago, Dave-regenerated said:

Hello there.  You confused me as I read through this thread because it seems you are arguing for a young earth and an old earth at the same time.  I apologise if I misunderstood.

No kidding!!  He had me confused as well.  He argues against a time gap between Gen 1:1 and 2 YET claims the earth is 4.5 B y/o.  Go figure.  

17 hours ago, Dave-regenerated said:

  

How old do you believe the earth is and how old do you believe the universe is and how old do you believe humans are?

Great questions!!  Hope he answers.

[Roymond]

On 3/12/2023 at 11:42 AM, Dave-regenerated said:

Hello there.  You confused me as I read through this thread because it seems you are arguing for a young earth and an old earth at the same time.  I apologise if I misunderstood.  

How old do you believe the earth is and how old do you believe the universe is and how old do you believe humans are?

On the basis of the Hebrew text, we don't really know how old the universe or the Earth are, though according to ancient scholars the first Genesis Creation account tells us that the universe is unimaginably ancient and the Earth is uncountably ancient.

What I'm arguing against is the long-discredited Gap Theory that goes against the Hebrew in both grammar and word meaning.

From the material evidence God has left for us, the Earth is at the very least hundreds of millions of years old just judging by physical geology, and the universe is several times as old as measured in different ways.

How old are humans?  You mean how long have humans been around?  I don't know, except that it's a lot longer than six thousand years; we know of human-built structures that are at least twelve thousand years old -- just as an example, people were living at Jericho about 9,000 B.C. and there are towers in the Middle East that date back a thousand years before that.

[Roymond]

On 3/12/2023 at 9:47 PM, Michael37 said:

And there are the non-christian scientists who realise Darwinian evolution isn't scientific.

Which has no bearing on the fact that there are people who ended up becoming Christians because their study of evolution led them to conclude there is a Designer.

What it does say is that Augustine was right, and Christians shouldn't be making statements about science based on the scriptures because it will make Christians look foolish.

[Michael37]

22 minutes ago, Roymond said:

Which has no bearing on the fact that there are people who ended up becoming Christians because their study of evolution led them to conclude there is a Designer.

What it does say is that Augustine was right, and Christians shouldn't be making statements about science based on the scriptures because it will make Christians look foolish.

The Bible isn't a science textbook, and vice versa.

[FreeGrace]

7 hours ago, Roymond said:

Which has no bearing on the fact that there are people who ended up becoming Christians because their study of evolution led them to conclude there is a Designer.

What it does say is that Augustine was right, and Christians shouldn't be making statements about science based on the scriptures because it will make Christians look foolish.

Are you going to get around to explaining WHY you criticize my view of Gen 1:2 which EXPLAINS a very old earth all the while believing the earth is very old?

Then, since you reject my understanding of Gen 1:2, will you please explain how you think the earth is very much older than Adam?

[JohnR7]

On 3/11/2023 at 1:12 AM, Roymond said:

No, "sea" is symbolic

Everything is symbolic and has a meaning. Unless we live in a Matrix then the world we live in is still a real literal world. 

[Roymond]

On 3/17/2023 at 4:47 AM, FreeGrace said:

Are you going to get around to explaining WHY you criticize my view of Gen 1:2 which EXPLAINS a very old earth all the while believing the earth is very old?

Then, since you reject my understanding of Gen 1:2, will you please explain how you think the earth is very much older than Adam?

I've already answered this:  the Hebrew will not sustain the view you propose; it's a view that was put forth two generations ago and has been thoroughly demolished by scholars.

Your protest here is like arguing that because I say there is no stop sign at fifth street then no stop signs exist.  I'll try one final time to get through to you:

There is no gap.  Neither the Hebrew grammar not the Greek allow for a gap.  The gap idea was invented out of thin air by someone trying to force the Bible to fit his personal views, and has been rejected by scholars.

This time I will not respond any more since you ignore what I write.