Do we have to do good works to be saved ?

[Your closest friendnt]

4 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Your message is confusing, I don't say this to judge you, but this is what it come across. 

JESUS CHRIST is not judging the way people judge. 

He knows whether someone has believe. 

Faith is always in the heart and it is incorrect to suggest anything contary. 

Jesus has assured us that no matter how small is the faith in anyone, he cannot be decieve, he can see it, and he does not need the witness or the confession of anyone. 

Jesus hates good works from thoses who say , look at my good works , I must be saved. 

Thats why there many unbelievers among us who use good works as a means to decieved the brethren that they believe when they our not and they do that for their own proppose. 

So to tell someone show me your good works to convinced me or others that you have believed it is not from the Spirit of Truth. 

To tell someone he does not believe when the person believes to scared him into good works and get his tithes is not right. 

Faith without works is eternal life. If you believe Jesus die on the Cross. 

But faith that your incometax refund is in the mail, when you are not eligible for a refund , then fast and pray but you will .never see the fruit of your prayer. 

 

What is that you do not understand.

Ask and you will recieve

I hope so, is good to bring it up. 

[vlad]

I like this discussion. There is respect in it and no discord. It is peaceful and there are no such tags as "legalists" or "anti-legalists" as in other threads. As I see it essentially all participants agree to the same most important  things. 

As for myself when I used to analyse things scientifically it was easy as I dealt with discrete separate countable things. Spiritual things and all that goes with them are fused together. That reminds me of "practice without theory is blind and theory without practice is dead" Which is worse practice without theory or theory without practice? Both are worse.

 

[Dan_79]

7 hours ago, Yowm said:

You should know whether you are saved or not...

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
(1Jn 5:12-13)

Not to know is a joy thief.

 

I have yet to be judged.

My heart and actions will show if I have believed on the son as anything else is a lie.

7 hours ago, Yowm said:

Peter, being a disciple of Jesus, says differently...

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(2Pe 3:15-16)

Whichever side you take with the faith/works issue, know this, Peter and Paul were in agreement.
 

(for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), and when James and Cephas (Peter) and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

Until here, but Paul was correct.

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?” We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
(Gal 2:8-21)
 

Hi Yowm.

Can you define the word Jew please in these passages of scripture?

I don't want the gun to go off half-cocked as it were.

Is a Jew an adherent of the religion of judaism who denied Christ (accepted the curses unto their children) and who still attend buildings called a synagogue, a Judean or a person of the land of Judea which held a mixture of different people or a Judahite (a person who is from the tribe of Judah) which is synonymous with ISRAEL (the people) and hebrew?

They do not all mean the same but only when referred to as JEW for the purpose of lies are they collectively done so.

I don't affiliate with the link below but offer it in good faith for the point of referrence.

http://fathersmanifesto.net/webster-and-the-term-jew.pdf

 

Rev 3:9 gives us a clear warning about this.

(I see the red warning signs again lol.)

Please make this as clear as possible so I can answer to your post correctly.

Thanks

Edited April 29, 2018 by Dan_79

[Dan_79]

Paul’s doctrine of belief and faith rather than alongside good works brought him into conflict with Jesus’ handpicked disciples who knew Jesus personally and better understood his teachings.

The apostle James in obvious response to Paul’s misleading preachments countered:

“Faith by itself, if it has no works is dead” - James 2:17

“A man is justified by works not faith alone” - James 2:24

“As body without spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead” – James 2:26

That is because since the begining there were only man who had the holy spirit of God breathed into them. Anything else is universalist heresy preached by the governement endorsed churches.

How can someone without the holy spirit do good works? 

Who was given the holy spirit: Adam

 

Paul himself alluded to this doctrinal confrontation with Jesus’ handpicked disciples:

“If someone preaches another Jesus different from the one we preach…if you receive a different gospel from the one you accepted…I think that I am not in the least inferior to these superlative apostles” - 2 Corinthians 11:4-5

Lol.

“I do not understand my own actions, for I do not do what I want but what I hate… For I know nothing good dwells within me…As I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want” – Romans 7:15-19

“Everyone must submit himself to the governing (Roman) authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority (of Rome) is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves” - Romans 13:1-2

Jesus did not give tribute to Rome as he loved his father.  "My kingdom is not of this earth" 

Oh....the Roman kingdom isn't of God....there is a suprise lol

“What I am saying, I say not with the Lord’s authority but as a fool in boastful confidence. Since many of you boast, I too will boast” – 2 Cor 11:17-1

“But through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abound, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” – Romans 3:7

What I write is true. Before God I do not lie! - Galatians 1:20

That's right Paul.... by faith or is it Saul the murderer by works?...

Is your truth a work or your faith a falsehood?

Which one is it Paul?

You seem to serve Rome and God... So which one do you LOVE and which one do you HATE? (Mathew 6:24)

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Dan_79

[Dan_79]

16 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Someone aint reading much of what paul writes .  that man warned out more against sin and warned how such will not inherit the kingdom than most .

WELL , due to we have most his letters .    Paul and james preached an identical concept .    You saved by faith ,  but it their is no real works ,  ITS LIP SERVICE .  

Paul and James are largely at variance.

James was one of Jesus close disciples.

Paul never met Jesus and denounced Jesus close dicsiples as superlative (which is sarcastic in its context)

Paul is 100% faith

James is faith and good works.

The Churches and ministers get heavy tribute for preaching Paul as he was pro authoritarian (which is effectively usurpation of the LAW).

This shows me faith can be misplaced and works can be misguided. Paul effectively had faith in the Roman authority (which according to the apocraphy) resulted in his death. Irony being the works of the government did not work out all that good for Paul and with no good works to fall back on himself as he said you don't need them.

Ok say I go around boasting that I am saved because men say I am, what regard for God and my faith in his judgements do I really show towards him or in my heart?

 

I have faith in Jesus, I have faith in Gods LAWS too (neither contradict eachother or are at variance).

Satan (who has already been condemned) and his minnions keep whispering you can save yourself! 

Luke 17:33

Catholicism teaches that you can be a criminal mobster and as long as the hail M for that session as long as you confess (as opposed to refrain from the sin you confess) your ok...AND saved.

Some of the most evil people I have met all seem to be cock sure of their salvation and in doing so have no other compulsion to do any good works, effectively the one thing they believe saves them stops them from being saved.

See the danger?

My instructions are to endure in faith till the very end of my life and to give the same chance to those who hear his voice using good works, speak the truth, be humble in correction on error and protect and help those that seek him.

Its called the day of judgement for a reason.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Dan_79

[Hidden In Him]

On 4/28/2018 at 12:40 AM, Butero said:

That is it in a nut shell Other One, but there is yet another question.  What do we mean when we speak of good works?  Are we talking about things we actually do for others, or are we talking about abstaining from sin?  I never looked at it as doing a good work because I don't steal, kill, commit adultery, etc.  A good work would be giving to the poor, or perhaps helping someone with no money with home repairs if we are good at such things.  Good works to me are things we do.  

That's an interesting distinction... although it still kinda skirts the issue, IMO, since in James 2:14-17 the question is about good works (even as you define them) verses merely trusting in faith alone... sorry, I'm just thinking out loud as I'm writing... 

For me, the best way to understand this issue is through the terms "sons of obedience" and "sons of disobedience," and the analogy of being adopted as sons. An adopted son doesn't do anything to save himself, but if he wishes to become a true part of the family he will be expected to conform himself to the will of the Father. So too with us. 

Is salvation through obedience? No. Salvation is through grace alone. But I believe that grace bestowed upon us can be cancelled out if we refuse to conform ourselves to the father's will and walk in obedience to Him, especially in matters very important to Him like forgiveness (Matthew 18:21-35), and also ministering to those in need if they belong to God and we have the capacity to (Matthew 25:31-46). 

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Hidden In Him

[Your closest friendnt]

52 minutes ago, Dan_79 said:

Paul’s doctrine of belief and faith rather than good works brought him into conflict with Jesus’ handpicked disciples who knew Jesus personally and better understood his teachings.

 

The apostle James in obvious response to Paul’s misleading preachments countered:

“Faith by itself, if it has no works is dead” - James 2:17

“A man is justified by works not faith alone” - James 2:24

“As body without spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead” – James 2:26

Paul himself alluded to this doctrinal confrontation with Jesus’ handpicked disciples:

“If someone preaches another Jesus different from the one we preach…if you receive a different gospel from the one you accepted…I think that I am not in the least inferior to these superlative apostles” - 2 Corinthians 11:4-5

“I do not understand my own actions, for I do not do what I want but what I hate… For I know nothing good dwells within me…As I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want” – Romans 7:15-19

“Everyone must submit himself to the governing (Roman) authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority (of Rome) is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves” - Romans 13:1-2

“What I am saying, I say not with the Lord’s authority but as a fool in boastful confidence. Since many of you boast, I too will boast” – 2 Cor 11:17-1

“But through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abound, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” – Romans 3:7

What I write is true. Before God I do not lie! - Galatians 1:20

 

This is not the correct profile of Paul, you have pick bits and pieces, to built a Paul , some of those pieces they don't belong to him. Or they are discarded pieces of the past. 

Paul is different, and as a Jew he will never speak against works of charity.

Is this not what James was talking about. 

About works of charity? 

Loving our neibour not just in our time but in their time of need? 

Have you prayed for the victims of natural disasters. 

Did you asked God to help them , without you doing nothing or contributing nothing for

People in their need said God help us, 

God knows how to strengthen them within in the time of their need. 

And knows how to move the charitable organizations and governments of any kind , even the greedy ones to help. 

So they just believe that God will help them and they did nothing, just waithing traped under the rumble. 

James judge the people of his cogregation, or the less carring ones. 

His judgement was not very specific, and had a message between the lines. 

He cautions the having, that their charity may help not only the hungry but them also. 

If the hungree get too hungree, they are force to steel, and even kill to get to the sourses of sustainability. 

Sure the James prediction that if you do not help the hungree may result in your death by the hungree ones , you prayed that God will help them and not you. 

If you do not give they will take it from you, if there is not other sourse. 

At the bigining of their ministry many sold their belongins to help one another.

But now James has to confront a different situation.

Some they are not willing to help the less fortunate. 

If they do not feed the hungree they may die, you may condemned to death. 

Or they will go back to synagogues to be fed, and returned to the Mosaic Law, without Mosses. And the deas works of the Law. 

This is we have works that give death. 

Choose faith without works that give life.

Or works , all kinds of works full of fasting and prayers and morality and charity that gives death. 

We should choose the life without works, and if we did not have good works before we believe , we should look for them in our new faith, the works if the follow they follow. 

Most of the new believers have good works when they believe, and not all of them they are swimming into sins, to the contrary they may be very strict with their lives. 

 

[Dan_79]

28 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is not the correct profile of Paul, you have pick bits and pieces, to built a Paul , some of those pieces they don't belong to him. Or they are discarded pieces of the past. 

Paul is different, and as a Jew he will never speak against works of charity.

Is this not what James was talking about.

 

 

 

 

Hi ycf

I have included the passages that are at variance between Paul and James and explained why I think Paul is inconsistent with what Jesus taught.

I raise issue for debate only, I am not a judge of Paul but I will say or bring this up on relevance to other posts that give precedence to Paul which contradicts Jesus.

This is about one instruction being 100% faith while other instructions warns it is to be faith AND good works, which keeps the the OP.

Can you show me which passages are wrong or have been discarded.

Thanks

Edited April 29, 2018 by Dan_79

[vlad]

A special point. Good works or bad works are of extreme importance in case of leaders of nations. They can lead  whole nations to either peace or disaster. As we know from history much depends on them. What should the Christians do? Wait and see what will happen or warn them if something is wrong? I think they should not be afraid to express a warning. 

[Dan_79]

41 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I'm sorry to see yourself not lining up with 1Jn 5:12-13. Also if your only hope is in Jesus Christ then Jn 5:24 also applies...

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(Joh 5:24)
 

John 5:24. Reads ...

God has the last say. I doesn't guarantee my salvation unless I :

A: Believed the word of God AND 

B: Followed through on what he commanded me to do (demonstrated my belief by deed or works that reflect such belief). 

C: Been judged on that dreadful day

Mathew 5:18 Basically outlines this.

The second death is for those who are not risen in Christ but die eternal.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Dan_79
grammar