Isaiah 9:6-7

[Your closest friendnt]

On 5/17/2018 at 12:41 AM, Mark Loga said:

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, 

I would like to know the revelation hidden in these two verses from any one who has carefully studied these two verses from the Hebrew texts.  If you haven't done the reserch you may kindly suggest me some useful links where I can do my own research. The best explanation so far I found is Gill's Exposition.

I understand these two verses reveal the process that the Christ, the Son of God passing through from the eternity past to the eternity future. 

Grace be with you.

Isaiah 9:6,7

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:

and his name shall be called Wonderful,

Counsellor,

The mighty God,

The everlasting Father,

The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

* The  Everlasting Father.

One way to look at the above statement is to hear the Israelites say that they are Abraham's children or very often say "Abraham is our Father". 

After many generations they still called Abraham their Father, even though they have a father who gave birth to them...whose blood can be trace to Abraham...

Abraham was also their "Patriarch".

God made Abraham a Patriarch of his people, the people of God, the Nation of God...

In the time period from the time God called Abraham and set him apart from the rest of the world and gave promises to Abraham which pass down to his children after him...

Patriarch in the case of Abraham includes all the promises God gave to Abraham and were pass onto his children...

The blood relation with the Circumcision made them eligible for those blessings... till the Law when the Covenant of circumcision was codify in the Law of Moses...

Abraham was not the EVERLASTING FATHER...

The time came that Abraham follow Jesus Christ he needed the Messiah of God...the forgiveness of sins in his name after the Cross...

In the scripture in Isaiah 9:6, we see that the EVERLASTING FATHER is yet to be born...

Jesus Christ fits the profile of the EVERLASTING FATHER...

The Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ has children from all over the world...

God has a new family through Jesus Christ...

This what it means to be born from above...from the Spirit of God,  that we are one with God....we have peace with God through Jesus Christ...

We are born from above...and we are going to where Jesus Christ is in Heaven with the Heavenly Father...

[JohnD]

On 10/26/2020 at 7:33 AM, Billiards Ball said:

Work on concision.

?

[Your closest friendnt]

On 11/2/2020 at 12:09 PM, Josheb said:

Yep.

That does not change the fact that this op is selecting only two verses out of a much larger narrative and asking a vague question that warrants clarification/specification. 

The OP made a very strong point, by letting the Scripture message of Isaiah 9: 6,7 tell us who is the EVERLASTING FATHER, of the people of God, who are not separated from God and they can be together...

In Isaiah the EVERLASTING FATHER is not yet born that he is on the way...

Do you think that one of the atributes as "the mighty God" is referring to Abraham? 

Or the EVERLASTING FATHER is not referring to Jesus Christ who is the Patriarch among other things of the NEW Family of God...

The born from above...you know the Father of Abraham the one who gave him life? And you know his Father who adopted him and took a people for himself....

Is the Government upon the shoulders of anyone except on Jesus Christ...

Have not God appointed Jesus Christ to be the Judge of the whole world...did not God made him the Lord of all?  

Every knee shall bow down to Jesus Christ...

Isaiah 9:6,7 . 

⁶ For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

⁷ Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

[Your closest friendnt]

39 minutes ago, Josheb said:

nt

"nt", stands for 

not an outright "not", but that it depends. It's left to be determined. 

It's like we agree with something but we disagree with something else...

Continued in communicating. 

[Your closest friendnt]

24 minutes ago, Josheb said:

According to Cyber Definitions the most common use of "nt" indicates "no thanks" but it can mean "next time," "no time," "nice try," and many other things, even "Ninja Turtles" . Since there was nothing quoted there is no context for no thanks, next time, nice try, or Ninja Turtle. Worthy does not permit a post to be entirely deleted or an empty edit (I tried). Most forums require at least two characters when editing a post so if you'd like I will gladly post ".." or any two characters you think more appropriate. 

just for you ycf 

 

 

 

.

It's kind of you to take the time to explain. ?

[Your closest friendnt]

 

Isaiah 9:6,7

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:

and his name shall be called Wonderful,

Counsellor,

The mighty God,

The everlasting Father,

The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and 

 

Josheb  353

Posted 1 hour ago 

  1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Do you think that one of the atributes as "the mighty God" is referring to Abraham? 

No.

  1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The born from above...you know the Father of Abraham the one who gave him life?

??? The only life Abe had was that which the God gave him. 

  1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Have not God appointed Jesus Christ to be the Judge of the whole world...did not God made him the Lord of all? 

Expand  Expand  

Yes, and yes.

****

??? The only life Abe had was that which the God gave him. 

This is not so simple and is not easily understood. 

Because Abraham understood that the day will come that he will seize to be the Patriarch of God's people.. 

Because Abraham was looking forwards to the Christ of God with the Heavenly Inheritance....

That's what Abraham did not have and he couldn't give to his children...

Abraham was waiting for the EVERLASTING FATHER...Jesus Christ...

 

[Your closest friendnt]

39 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I disagree. When I am shown scriptural evidence for the implication life comes from elsewhere then I will change my position. Until then it is God Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it (Isa. 42:5). 

If Abraham was looking forward to someone else and that someone else was not Abe then Abe is not the everlasting father and it's quite simple and very easy to understand. 

However, Abraham being the father of many nations (not just the patriarch of Israel or what would become Judaism does not change just because Jesus is everlasting and serves as a patriarch of the new covenant. These are not mutually exclusive conditions so the fallacy of the neglected middle (false dichotomy) nor that of false equivalency or ambiguity should be committed. Context is important. 

What's not simple about that?

What, specifically, is not easily understood? 

In Romans 4 Paul quotes God, speaking through Moses writing as a prophetic historian: A father of many nations I have made you," and Paul states quite plainly he is the father of our faith - "all of us." and then Paul draws parallels between Abraham's believing God and our believing Jesus. 

What's not simple about that? 

What, specifically, is not easily understood? 

You say, "That's what Abraham didn't have and couldn't give his children..." but that's not what his fatherhood if about. His fatherhood is two-fold (at least): 1) the biological father of the bloodline that would bring about the incarnation, and 2) his precedent of faith over that biology. In terms of history that will have been the roles he served and it will always be that way as far as the record of history goes. For all eternity. 

What's not simple about that? 

What, specifically, is not easily understood?  

Jesus, on the other hand, is God incarnate. He is the life (Jn. 14:6) and no one comes to the Father but by him. That's the role he plays in history. However, that guy was with God in the beginning as God and his role as the perfect sacrifice was decided upon before the world was created so his fatherhood precedes Abraham's. He is without beginning or end so he is eternal. Subtle distinction but fairly simple and easy to understand. 

No? Explain it to me.

Abraham's rein as a Patriarch ended at the death of Jesus Christ on theCross.

When Jesus Christ said "It's finished".

Amongst the  things that finished was the Patriarchy of Abraham being the First of the people of God without the Heavenly Inheritance...

Till that time the people of God were gathered to Abraham...to the place God had appointed to Abraham after his death, and to his seed after their death. 

 

If he or anyone under his Patriarchy did not believe in Jesus Christ afrer the death of Jesus on the Cross and died with their denial...they will be lost...still in their sins...

God did not hold the sins of anyone of Abraham and his seed against them till the time of the ten commandments...

The first time God Judge the seed of Abraham for their sin against him...to worship other Gods...

With the Law he judge them according to the law...

And he gave them the Priesthood and the forgiveness of sins for the first time...

Meaning he began to Judge them for their sins...

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do please show me the scriptures reporting Abraham is no longer a patriarch, especially since Paul called him father after Jesus said "It is finished," and please show me where scripture reports "It is finished" is about Abraham's status as patriarch. 

Show me the scripture.

Abraham Judged the world...when he agreed with the Covenant of Circumcision...that God will be only for him and his offerings, as we see it happened through Isaac and Jacob and all his house...

Abraham did not plea for the rest of the world.   

The rest of the world was rejected by the Lord God Almighty....who was not the Heavenly Father...

Abraham did not have the Heavenly Father..

He was in his own righteousness by faith and not only him but also his offsprings till the ten commandments when or a little back at the passover. 

The offsprings of Abraham till the righteousnes of the Law till their Sinai Covenant with God..they were carried on the wings of Abraham's righteousness not their own....their sins were not reckoned against them...they sin a d they sin a lot too much even worshiping the God's of Egypt...but they still remained in the righteousness of Abraham...

They were righteous because their Patriarch Abraham was righteous..

 

[Your closest friendnt]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do please show me the scriptures reporting Abraham is no longer a patriarch, especially since Paul called him father after Jesus said "It is finished," and please show me where scripture reports "It is finished" is about Abraham's status as patriarch. 

Show me the scripture.

I don't think so that a lot of people understand that the first time forgiveness of sins was given to people was through the Law of Moses with the introduction of the Priesthood and the Temple and the sacrifices...

Before that the descendants of Abraham were in the inherited righteousness of Abraham through the Covenant of Circumcision.

They sin but they still were in the righteousness of their Patriarch Abraham, sin did not separated from their Patriarch Abraham...they remained in him because they were having not a righteousness of their own but on the righteousness of Abraham...till the Law was given and they were required to abide by the Law...the righteousness that comes with obedience to what the Law said, year after year...

Exodus 32:9-14 is an example that when he suggested to Moses that he considered to start a new Nation of God for him self...

He is telling Moses that he will utterly destroy the Nation at hand and he will have only one Nation out of him..

The Nation with the righteousness of the Law....

Here we see that when God starts a new Nation he destroys the old...in this example he did not invite those of the old nation to joint the new nation but with Jesus Christ the old Nation of God is invited to joint the new nation of God by the same way as everyone else by faith in Jesus Christ who died for the forgiveness of our sins to be born from above...the nation not separated from God. Abraham was also invited to joint the new nation of God by the same way as anyone else.. 

He also had to believe in Jesus Christ that he is the Messiah after the Cross.   

 

Both nations cannot exist at the same time...

Jesus Christ was telling Nicodemus to follow in the steps of Abraham who would believe in him after his death on the Cross...

Abraham will believe to be part of the new family of God.  

Abraham was a Patriarch but not a Lord and a judge of his own people...to judge them for their righteousness...

He could not judge them to excluded them because they had his own imputed righteousness...

Till the Law when his descendants were judge by the Law...

 

Exodus 9-14 

⁹ And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

¹⁰ Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

¹¹ And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

¹² Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

¹³ Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

¹⁴ And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do please show me the scriptures reporting Abraham is no longer a patriarch, especially since Paul called him father after Jesus said "It is finished," and please show me where scripture reports "It is finished" is about Abraham's status as patriarch. 

Show me the scripture.

In Romans 4:

Paul acknowledged that had never happened before that God had imputed righteousness to anyone else.   

Thus Abraham as being the first one to have imputed righteousness on account of faith.  

Is a Father of the righteousness by faith alone.  Not as a reward that he did something...

Abraham saved his descendants from the Judgment of God through the Covenant of Circumcision...his descendants sin but they remained in the righteousness of the inherited righteousness of Abraham they were born into..

Till the Law was given...

God promised Abraham that he will have descendants and Abraham believe him...without knowing before hand that God will impute righteousness to him...

God surprise him, as God surprise him a number of times later on and about that he will take his will make a Nation for himself out of him...

We do not believe the same way Abraham believe...

Abraham was in righteousness when he believe God that he will give him children...

We are unrighteous when we are asked to believe and we need to have forgiveness of sins...we are asked to believe that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins and we have the righteousness of Jesus Christ by faith when we believe. And Jesus Christ who died for us and the whole world is our Judge, so we cannot be judge for our sins and we cannot loose his imputed righteousness we cannot be cut off from him.  

Abraham,s faith in God is of a different sircumstances...not in the name of Jesus Christ...at that time...

With the Law we see a different situation.   The descendants of Abraham may be in circumcision and have faith in God but if they do not keep the Law they were lost...cut off...

Their Circumcision and faith in God did not Saved them.

They were judge by their obedience to the Law.  

In Jesus Christ we are in God because we believe in Jesus Christ a d we remain in Jesus Christ as long as we believe in him.

He is our righteousness and we are his people.