Moses

[Guest Bro David™]

Moses was forgiven for the sin and God continued to use him to lead the Children of Israel, but the consequence of his sin was that he was not allowed to set foot in the promised land.

One thing that I have always tried to remember when making choices in my life is this:

YOU CAN CHOOSE YOUR SIN, BUT YOU CANNOT CHOOSE THE CONSEQUENCES.

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So IR, ANYONE,

Is it then safe to say that when you sin and ask for forgiveness you are indeed forgiven by God.

But that forgiveness does not mean we do not have to pay for our sins ?

So in reality although we are forgiven by God we are still bound to face the reality of what the sin entails.

How then is that considered being forgiven.

Now when your Son does something wrong and you decide to forgive him do you then also punish HIm in the same hand that gave forgiveness.

Don't be mistaken I know the answer just wanted to know your opinions and the feelings about this fact with how others take it.

[Guest shiloh357]

[quote name='Bro David

[Guest Bro David™]

  The purpose of forgiveness is restoration.  We can be restored as friends, but the healing process will take a while.

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If the purpose of forgiveness is restoration.

How can restoration include putting off and/or away.

If forgiveness does not entail total restoration in would then defeat the purpose of forgiveness would it not.

Example that was given to me tonight by someone I was trying to bring "back" to Christ.

If I am a drunk and I come to know Christ and he forgives me, why can't he make my lung cancer go away ?

Why must I still die of it.

If I am assured forgiveness by Christ will he not then remove my lung cancer and the fact that I am gonna die.

Why would I need to be forgiven when I am already doing the time.

That is why I ask why does forgiveness not entail total restoration if we are indeed being forgiven.

[nebula]

These are good questions you bring up, and things, I believe, we misunderstand.

When a person is wronged, so often we tell the person, "Forgive and forget," yet the person who did the wrong is not expected to do anything.

My rambled thoughts on the matter.

I will use David's sin with Bathsheba as a reference.

The Lord forgave David when David repented, but he still had a heavy price to pay.

But if you note what happened here:

II Sam 12

7 Nathan replied to David, "You are the man! This is what the Lord God of Israel says: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master's house to you and your master's wives into your arms, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah, and if that was not enough, I would have given you even more. 9 Why then have you despised the command of the Lord by doing what I consider evil? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife as your own wife-you murdered him with the Ammonite's sword. 10 Now therefore, the sword will never leave your house because you despised Me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own wife.'

11 "This is what the Lord says, 'I am going to bring disaster on you from your own family: I will take your wives and give them to another before your very eyes, and he will sleep with them publicly. 12 You acted in secret, but I will do this before all Israel and in broad daylight.' "

13 David responded to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord."

Then Nathan replied to David, "The Lord has taken away your sin; you will not die. 14 However, because you treated the Lord with such contempt in this matter, the son born to you will die."

"The wages of sin is death - right?

David deserved to die for his sin, but this debt was removed.

However, the effects of the sin needed to be purified out.

Punishment has a purpose.

Punishment is to teach right and wrong - not just to the person who sinned but others who see.

Imagine what people would think and do if sin were never punished?

Punishment is also meant as a refining fire.

I recall hearing a sermon where the preacher presented that had David not suffered such severe consequences for his sin, it might be possible he could fall into the same sin again.

(As righteous as David was, he was still human, after all.)

My thoughts.

[EricH]

A good modern day example would be if a girl got pregnant out of wedlock. Lets say she seeks forgiveness from God. I believe God will do so. But the consequence (the baby and the ramifications of single parenthood) are still there. We would not expect God to remove those.

Edited April 30, 2005 by pastoreric

[EricH]

A second more theological example is the sentence God pronounced in the Garden of Eden due to sin. God said that in the day that they ate of the tree, they would surely die. This death (or separation) was two-fold. The first separation occurs at physcial death when our soul separates from our body. The second is an eterna lseparation from God.

Christ came to lift the sentence of death. Those who come are no longer eternally separated. But, part of the cosequence of the orginal sin is that physical death is still in the world, even through Christ paid the penalty. It will not be lifted until the fulness of the kingdom. That is a consequence of sin. We cannot not fully experience all the blessings of the kingdom

Edited April 30, 2005 by pastoreric

[Guest Bro David™]

A good modern day example would be if a girl got pregnant out of wedlock. Lets say she seeks forgiveness from God. I believe God will do so. But the consequence (the baby and the ramifications of single parenthood) are still there. We would not expect God to remove those.

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Hi Pastor Eric,

Blessed Sabbath

Ok now for the gist of the matter.

I belive that is a bad example because.

Neither is pregnancy a sin nor is the baby a sin.

It was the act of extra marital sex that was the sin.

So when she is the forgiven how would something that is not in itself a sin be removed.

I am more into finding out why fruits of sin are not removed.

Such has if I smoked for forty years.

I then repent and get saved.

I ask for forgiveness and according to the Bible I get it.

I would expect the fruit of the sin to leave me has well since it is itself a product of sin.

So why then does one have to stop smoking when he/she is already gonna die of it ?

Why is forgiveness needed when the fruit or product is never gonna be removed.

[EricH]

Your assumption that they will never be removed is false. All consequence will eventually be removed in the kingdom (for instance lung cancer from smoking). Part of the consequence of sin is that they may not be removed in this life. I thnink your view is too short. You are missing the kingdom perspective. Your logic is basically if I cant see full results now, I won't do it

Edited April 30, 2005 by pastoreric

[Guest Bro David™]

My rambled thoughts on the matter.

I will use David's sin with Bathsheba as a reference.

The Lord forgave David when David repented, but he still had a heavy price to pay.

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You just had to choose David didn't you LOL.

David deserved to die for his sin, but this debt was removed.

However, the effects of the sin needed to be purified out.

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You see this is what I am asking.

The debt was not removed it fell on His son.

How can that be considered has removed.

Punishment has a purpose. 

Punishment is to teach right and wrong - not just to the person who sinned but others who see.

Imagine what people would think and do if sin were never punished?

Punishment is also meant as a refining fire.

I recall hearing a sermon where the preacher presented that had David not suffered such severe consequences for his sin, it might be possible he could fall into the same sin again.

(As righteous as David was, he was still human, after all.)

My thoughts.

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You have touched the heart of the matter.

If punishment is meted out for us after we ask for forgiveness how are we then forgiven ?

You see same thing like David and Moses.

If after forgiveness they still paid the price don't you think we might be mis-understanding the word forgiveness in the Bible ?

[Guest Bro David™]

Your assumption that they will never be removed is false. All consequence will eventually be removed in the kingdom (for instance lung cancer from smoking). Part of the consequence of sin is that they may not be removed in this life. I thnink your view is too short. You are missing the kingdom perspective. Your logic is basically if I cant see full results now, I won't do it

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Dear Pastor Eric.

Kindly do not mistake my instigations for debate has my theology.

I am trying to get some perspective into something I was asked earlier.