inchrist Posted June 5, 2018 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2018 13 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said: One thing this thread has revealed is that the pre-trib doctrine can be twisted into anything it needs to be to tickle ears. Giving you love there, so true what you just stated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted June 5, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Davida said: Actually , you reveal your hearts... Yes, we do.Ā We care. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted June 5, 2018 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2018 3 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said: Ā Just like the Sabbath Keepers.Ā No sound refutation, just mis-characterization to poison the well. As appose to what the rejection of God's laws?Ā Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Brother Duke said: I think we differ here.Ā I see 1 Cor 15 as the first resurrection and all will be raised including the tribulation saints in their new bodies. Ā Rev. 20:4-6 tells us that the first resurrection only includes the Tribulation saints that died for not worshiping the beast and his image:Ā "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6) So there will a resurrection of the saints that occurs prior to the first resurrection and that is outlined for us here: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."(1Th 4:13-17) Ā Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Conley Posted June 5, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 401 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/19/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said: Ā 20 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said: This not rocket science.Ā And despite the fact that you keep saying the same things, over and over again about what pre-trib believers believe and those claims are false, and you have been corrected on them, numerous times, you are still making those same claims, over and over again, ad nauseam.Ā You did it for 9 more pages after your above post.Ā In each case you lie, and every time you lie, you destroy your own credibility.Ā Every time you resort to a personal insult, which you have done numerous times, in this thread alone, you destroy your credibility, and yes, I report every personal insult you resort to.Ā No need to thank me, it's my pleasure to do so.Ā When I refer to people that are saved, I am referring to the Church Age.Ā The Rapture is the end of the Church Age.Ā The focus returns to Israel, and their eventual reconciliation with God, as both a people and a nation. Believers in the Church Age are not appointed to wrath.Ā Paul tells us that for a reason, but I constantly see mid-tribs and post-tribs pretend like that verse does not exist.Ā Or, they claim it isn't God's wrath.Ā Convenient vehicles to avoid what the verse says plainly, but not actually effective.Ā The Great Multitude are those who are saved during the Tribulation.Ā They are not Church Age believers.Ā I don't think I'm going before the Tribulation because I am somehow "special," even though you keep erroneously telling anybody reading the thread that that is what we believe.Ā One does not need to be a top-rung theologian to understand what "not appointed to wrath" means. You can tell someone you think their doctrine is wrong without being a jerk.Ā There is no need to mis-characterize them and openly lie about what they believe if your own argument has merit.Ā And yet, you do so in post after post.Ā YourĀ delivery is the problem.Ā And you will keep meeting fierce resistance until you can somehow learn to modify your behavior.Ā It isn't resistance to your doctrine as much as it is to your continual lies, and your repetitive personal insults.Ā And you don't have to wonder if we are reporting them.Ā We are, and we will continue to do so until you can somehow learn to stop doing it.Ā Ā Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Colbalt1959, As I have read through the discussion, I have seen no mis-characterization as you claim. Pre-tribbers believe, (I was one for forty years and taught it for thirty) that there are different classes of believers. Some who will experience the wrath of God and some who will not experience the wrath of God. I've been around long enough to know there are literally hundreds if not thousands of variations of the pre-trib model for the timing of the rapture. These differences are mostly minute, however some are much more significant. I am not referring to these nuanced ideas, but to the obvious conclusion of believing that the church is removed before the week begins and identifying that week in its entirety as the wrath of God. Even, most pre-tribbers recognize that an innumerable company of gentile believers come out of great tribulation (Rev 7:9-17). Most also recognize that these are saved from the just consequence of their sins just like we were, by the blood of the Lamb (Rev 12:11). So, pre-tribbers believe that there are, at least, two distinct groups of believers in Christ. One group will experience God's wrath and the other will not experience God's wrath. Hence, pre-tribbers believe in at least two classes of Christians. Pre-wrath adherents on the other hand do not see two classes of Christians. We rightly distinguish (rightly dividing) between the persecution of the church (elect) and Israel called great tribulation, and the wrath of God poured out upon the earth dwellers in the day of the Lord. The believer is first persecuted by the Dragon, Beast, False Prophet, and their followers beginning in the midst of the week, this will continue for an undisclosed period of less than 3 years, ending when Christ returns, rescues the church, and begins to pour out His fierce wrath upon those who had persecuted us. The earth dwellers will experience God's wrath for the remainder of the week, in the period known as the day of the Lord. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ Edited June 5, 2018 by Steve Conley clear up some language 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Conley Posted June 5, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 401 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/19/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2018 1 hour ago, shiloh357 said: Rev. 20:4-6 tells us that the first resurrection only includes the Tribulation saints that died for not worshiping the beast and his image:Ā "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6) So there will a resurrection of the saints that occurs prior to the first resurrection and that is outlined for us here: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."(1Th 4:13-17) Ā Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, shiloh357, you need to pay more attention to what Paul had to say. Paul says that there is just one resurrection for the believer this side of the Millennial reign of Christ. 1Co 15:22Ā For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Co 15:23Ā But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (parousia). 1Co 15:24Ā Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. The future resurrection of the just is "they that are Christ's at His coming" (parousia). There is only one future parousia (arrival and continuing presence) of Christ. It is at that time that He gathers His own unto himself. These include the dead in Christ, and those who are alive and remain (those who survived great tribulation). Paul spoke of this coming: 1Th 4:15Ā For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia)of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16Ā For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17Ā Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. He associated it with our gathering unto Christ. 2Th 2:1Ā Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Jesus was asked about it by the disciples Mat 24:3Ā And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world? He said it would be unmistakable Mat 24:27Ā For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. He described the timing of His arrival in relation to the tribulation of those days, which in context, is the great tribulation Mat 24:29Ā Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30Ā And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31Ā And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Daniel described the unprecedented time of trouble associated with a deliverance (of those written the book) and the resurrection Dan 12:1Ā And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:2Ā And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Between now and the end of the Millennium there is only one resurrection of the just. Not withstanding, the special circumstance of the two witnesses, who shall rise from the dead after 3.5 days, as seen in Rev 11. There is one future coming (parousia) of Christ, one future resurrection of the just, and one future rapture of the church, and they all happen on the same day, the day of Christ's appearing and revelation. This event is portended by a great earthquake and the sun, moon, and stars going dark(Joel 2:31; Rev 6:12-17). It is at that time that the saints who have survived the great tribulation will look up and lift up their heads, for their redemption draweth nigh (Luke 21:28) Hallelujah Ā Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Conley Posted June 5, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 401 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/19/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2018 9 minutes ago, Davida said: You might try to spin this favorably but it doesn't work , that is actually a type ofĀ deception. Twisting theĀ meaning of our words &Ā is exactly what has been done on this thread.Ā Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, It is interesting how many have adopted the spirit of this age and claim that they are victims, only to use that status as a safe platform from which they bully others with whom they disagree. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 23 minutes ago, Steve Conley said: Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, shiloh357, you need to pay more attention to what Paul had to say. Paul says that there is just one resurrection for the believer this side of the Millennial reign of Christ. 1Co 15:22Ā For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Co 15:23Ā But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (parousia). 1Co 15:24Ā Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. Ā There is the resurrection that happens at the rapture. Ā Then there is the resurrection of the Tribulation saints that happens at start of the millennium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Steve Conley said: Ā Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,Colbalt1959, As I have read through the discussion, I have seen no mis-characterization as you claim. You must have not read the mischaracterization leveled at us from another poster, unless you find yourself in agreement with this: "Except that is exactly the kind of foolishness in which the pretrib doctrine engages. There are two sets of believers according to pretrib dogma: one set gathered before the last week begins, and another set which endure the wrath of God and areĀ gathered sometime during the last week. Pretrib tells us there is an elite group of believers who are at this time perfected, righteous and holy and these will be taken out early so as not to endure what pretrib thinks is God's wrath. Then there is the other group, whom I have heard described on this forum as a lesser group, pushed aside because this group doesn't believe in the pretrib rapture, marginalized through what pretrib advocates seem to think is a closeted masochistic proclivity; e.g., a need to be punished to prove our worth, etc. Then of course this second, unbelieving, masochistic set must also be sadistic to the elite set, as I have heard it said on this forum the second set believe the brand new bride must be punished. Of course this is decried as outlandish as no good husband would ever do such a thing. What we see in the behavior of the advocates of the pretrib doctrine is slanderous, prejudicial and bigoted speech. Is that any way for any believer, no matter the personal dogma, to behave? We should be bold as the lion, rock solid in our convictions, determined, unmovable, but prejudice and bigotry have no place in the heart and mind of any of us. ļ»æ At any point in time I'm variously hurt, frustrated, sorrowful, given to tears, angry, dejected, etc., over this very subject, but in all that I hope I comport my self with dignity, integrity, honesty, patience, understanding, and truth. We all need to reflect on this as it's the love we are commanded to show to all others. While we may not agree on all things, fiercely defending our beliefs, it's not an opening for the worst behavior of which we are capable. " Quote Pre-tribbers believe, (I was one for forty years and taught it for thirty) that there are different classes of believers. Some who will experience the wrath of God and some who will not experience the wrath of God. That is not true and that has never been taught. Ā Those are not "classes" of believers. Ā I doubt you ever heard such a thing. Quote I've been around long enough to know there are literally hundreds if not thousands of variations of the pre-trib model for the timing of the raptureļ»æ. Prove that. Show us some links to these "literally hundreds if not thousands of variations." Ā I have been a pre-tribber for ever and have not seen any such thing.Ā So enlighten us on that. Quote So, pre-tribbers believe that there are, at least, two distinct groups of believers in Christ. One group will experience God's wrath and the other will not experience God's wrath. Hence, pre-tribbers believe in at least two classes of Christians. Yeah, who said that those who get saved during the Tribulation are lower class Christians?Ā Specifically who teaches that and please provide a link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Conley Posted June 5, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 401 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/19/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: There is the resurrection that happens at the rapture. Ā Then there is the resurrection of the Tribulation saints that happens at start of the millennium. Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, If you live long enough, and you indeed are Christ's, than you are one of those tribulation saints. When you witness the confirming of the covenant, the Temple rebuilt, and the daily sacrifice and oblation being resumed you will know that you missed the pre-trib rapture (because there wasn't one). If you live a few more years after that, you will have the privileged of joining the martyred saints of history to identify with our wonderful Saviour by not loving your life even unto death. Rev 12:11Ā And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Hallelujah 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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