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Mike Mclees

Two trbulations and the truth about them

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Tribulation has been with the church since its birth at Pentecost. The believers suffered at the hands of its own people. They were scattered at the hands of Saul. They were persecuted and slaughtered at the hands of Roman emperors until Constantine Even today they are murdered and tortured in the Middle East and other countries. So tribulation has been with us for two thousand years not a 7 yr thing the pre tribulationists want to call the tribulation period where they say second rate believers will suffer the antichrist and the wrath of God for seven years.

In Daniel 9:27 it states And he (the antichrist) shall confirm a covenant for seven years between Israel and its enemies, but in the mist  of the seven 3 1/2 yrs he shall commit the abomination of desolation at which he shall declare himself to God. So if you have paid attention to what I have stated you will see the church has been under tribulation since its birth up and until the abomination of desolation 3 1/2 years after the 7 yr peace confirmed by the antichrist after which is the time of great Tribulation under the power of the antichrist who seeks to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ from the earth using what is known as the mark of the beast whereby one swears loyalty and honor to him as god.

So two thousand years tribulation and 3 1/2 years great tribulation. Don't be slow walked by Pre tribers. They manipulate the tribulation period and their false security.

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I see you are still teaching a falsehood

You need to study your Bible

I will check in on you later

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35 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said:

Tribulation has been with the church since its birth at Pentecost. The believers suffered at the hands of its own people. They were scattered at the hands of Saul. They were persecuted and slaughtered at the hands of Roman emperors until Constantine Even today they are murdered and tortured in the Middle East and other countries.

What makes the great tribulation "great" is it's scope.  Believers being killed for their faith is nothing new like you say, it has just been isolated to certain locations at certain points in time.  Just because that level of persecution hasn't yet been seen in the west doesn't mean it can't or won't be.  The tide is turning so be ready.  The time of great tribulation will be global.  There will be nowhere to run, nowhere to hide (unless maybe you're an extreme survivalist).  It is part of the time of great distress that's mentioned in Daniel 12.

  • And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time.  Daniel 12:1b

It will affect believers and unbelievers alike, albeit in different ways, like the flood did.

44 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said:

So tribulation has been with us for two thousand years not a 7 yr thing the pre tribulationists want to call the tribulation period where they say second rate believers will suffer the antichrist and the wrath of God for seven years.

Yeah, I've never understood the notion of the Christian A team and B team, and no one has been able to explain what it takes to make the cut.  We know that both groups have to be believers because those who did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved are under a strong delusion. Those who the pretribbers characterize as the B team "tribulation saints" (who miss the pretrib) are described as having a martyr's faith??  So then, what does it take to make the A team?  The whole notion seems a bit ludicrous to me.

Hopefully, pretrib based eschatology doesn't cause it's adherents to behave foolishly.

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2 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

I see you are still teaching a falsehood

You need to study your Bible

I will check in on you later

I have the best teacher in the created universe. It is good to read the Bible but real truth is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

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2 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

I have the best teacher in the created universe. It is good to read the Bible but real truth is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

I agree. The Bible, all scripture, is filled with knowledge and wisdom; it's the Holy Spirit that gives the understanding.

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8 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

So tribulation has been with us for two thousand years not a 7 yr thing the pre tribulationists want to call the tribulation period where they say second rate believers will suffer the antichrist and the wrath of God for seven years.

Maybe I don't understand this part of your statement, but I was a pre-tribulationist for a long time.  The second rate believer thing is a small splinter of that group. We called them the "Split rapture" people. I used to believe that the whole church would be raptured out before the "7 year tribulation" period.  That is the standard pre-trib position. Did I misunderstand you here?  Thanks.

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One is a believer in Jesus Christ or they are not

There is no scriptural definition of a B team

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two tribs? 

Revelation 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 12:1 - And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

the church has seen persecution and tribulation, but whats coming down the pipe now will be worse than anything you have ever read in a history book. 

This time God will not save us by bow or sword.  not by chariots either.  we will be saved by The Spirit of The LORD. 

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5 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

One is a believer in Jesus Christ or they are not

There is no scriptural definition of a B team

Except that is exactly the kind of foolishness in which the pretrib doctrine engages. There are two sets of believers according to pretrib dogma: one set gathered before the last week begins, and another set which endure the wrath of God and are gathered sometime during the last week. Pretrib tells us there is an elite group of believers who are at this time perfected, righteous and holy and these will be taken out early so as not to endure what pretrib thinks is God's wrath. Then there is the other group, whom I have heard described on this forum as a lesser group, pushed aside because this group doesn't believe in the pretrib rapture, marginalized through what pretrib advocates seem to think is a closeted masochistic proclivity; e.g., a need to be punished to prove our worth, etc. Then of course this second, unbelieving, masochistic set must also be sadistic to the elite set, as I have heard it said on this forum the second set believe the brand new bride must be punished. Of course this is decried as outlandish as no good husband would ever do such a thing.

What we see in the behavior of the advocates of the pretrib doctrine is slanderous, prejudicial and bigoted speech. Is that any way for any believer, no matter the personal dogma, to behave? We should be bold as the lion, rock solid in our convictions, determined, unmovable, but prejudice and bigotry have no place in the heart and mind of any of us.

At any point in time I'm variously hurt, frustrated, sorrowful, given to tears, angry, dejected, etc., over this very subject, but in all that I hope I comport my self with dignity, integrity, honesty, patience, understanding, and truth. We all need to reflect on this as it's the love we are commanded to show to all others. While we may not agree on all things, fiercely defending our beliefs, it's not an opening for the worst behavior of which we are capable. 

 

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11 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

Maybe I don't understand this part of your statement, but I was a pre-tribulationist for a long time.  The second rate believer thing is a small splinter of that group. We called them the "Split rapture" people. I used to believe that the whole church would be raptured out before the "7 year tribulation" period.  That is the standard pre-trib position. Did I misunderstand you here?  Thanks.

I also was a pre-tib  believer. The letters of paul were written in the time of the apostles. The apostles suffered greatly along with the churches under the Emperors. It would have been difficult to tell them that they would not have to suffer at the  hands of their oppressors. 

Now we come into the  modern day  free world church who are not suffering at all and told tales of great woe so by using fear the church will escape before it all comes down  after the antichrist confirms seven years of peace with Israel. Why would all the fire works begin just after they made peace. :noidea: Both Jesus and Daniel concur it starts after the abomination of desolation 3 1/2 yrs after the peace agreement. Read Daniel 7: 25 where its says the church is handed over to the antichrist for this period. 

Now read Rev 15 the overcoming church ( the bride ) is in heaven just before the wrath of God is poured out on the unbeliever world.  So what is the stuff the pre- trib people are trying to sell us on. Money is at the bottom line, selling pews to fill their churches, write books and sell films. 

Persecution and Gods wrath are two separate events. The saints are not appointed Gods wrath. Those who overcome we see standing before God having the harps of God Rev 15. 

 

 

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