iamlamad Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2018 56 minutes ago, JoeCanada said: Hi iamlamad.... A person should not be so dogmatic in their assumption of "who or what" the restrainer is. There have been many guesses as to 'who or what' the restrainer is. Scripture just doesn't tell us. Why do you think Paul wrote, "and now you know what is holding him back, restraining him..." I would have to ask, why don't you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2018 46 minutes ago, douggg said: Basically, that's the bottom line. It is not stated directly in the text of those verses. I believe the restrainer is Jesus, because all power in heaven and in the earth has been given to him, Matthew 28:18. And him being taken out of the way, is a reference to the metaphorical body of Christ, the body of believers in Jesus - which would be the rapture. Yet, Paul knew and he wrote, "and now you know..." We are suppose to know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Last Daze said: Does the form change the essence? It is semantics. The man Jesus was NOT there in Moses day. The the Spirit inside, the 2nd person of the trinity was there. Since the real person is the spirit, not the body, I guess I will have to agree with you. He was there in essence. Edited August 16, 2018 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 hour ago, iamlamad said: Yet, Paul knew and he wrote, "and now you know..." We are suppose to know! good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 241 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 6,945 Content Per Day: 3.27 Reputation: 4,868 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted August 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Diaste said: And it's not a who that restrains, it's a what, that 'what' being the rebellion and the revealing which hold back Jesus from returning and the gathering. Ah, the Diaste Paradox once more around the block. So when the rebellion and the revealing are taken out of the way the restraint/withholding (both Gr.katechō ) will be gone... Who do you think the "he" in 2 Thess 2:7 is? He who now katechō will do so until he be taken out of the way Quote only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. G2722 κατέχω katechō kat-ekh'-o From G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively): - have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold. Total KJV occurrences: 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted August 17, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2018 14 hours ago, Diaste said: Well, that's just...misleading. Which part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted August 17, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2018 21 hours ago, Michael37 said: Now you can have fun explaining the three entities who are cast into the lake of fire. satan is all three ,it's just the different roles that he plays,will explain further later. Do a study on the different names of satan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted August 17, 2018 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 241 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 6,945 Content Per Day: 3.27 Reputation: 4,868 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, n2thelight said: satan is all three ,it's just the different roles that he plays,will explain further later. Do a study on the different names of satan. No need. It's obvious from Scripture that Satan, the beast, and the false prophet are three separate but colluding entities. THE BEAST & FALSE PROPHET(man of sin) CAST INTO LAKE OF FIRE: Rev 19:19-20 (19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. SATAN BOUND IN THE ABYSS Rev 20:1-3 (1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. SATAN (the Devil) LOOSED, DECEIVES NATIONS, GATHERS THEM TO BATTLE: Rev 20:7-10 (7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. SATAN (the Devil) CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE, WHERE BEAST & FALSE PROPHET (man of sin, son of perdition) ARE ALREADY: (10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Wrest the Scriptures however you want, Satan is not also the beast and the false prophet. Edited August 17, 2018 by Michael37 emboldening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted August 17, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2018 52 minutes ago, Michael37 said: No need. It's obvious from Scripture that Satan, the beast, and the false prophet are three separate but colluding entities. THE BEAST & FALSE PROPHET(man of sin) CAST INTO LAKE OF FIRE: There is a need ,from the below are they different or one? Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted August 17, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2018 10 hours ago, Michael37 said: Ah, the Diaste Paradox once more around the block. So when the rebellion and the revealing are taken out of the way the restraint/withholding (both Gr.katechō ) will be gone... Who do you think the "he" in 2 Thess 2:7 is? He who now katechō will do so until he be taken out of the way In the Greek there is no 'he' as you can see below. Further Paul is relating four events to the believers: the coming of the Lord, the gathering, the rebellion, and the revealing. Paul is telling some of these events occur before others, namely the rebellion and the revealing occur before the Coming and the gathering. In keeping with the context of; "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND THE GATHERING," the following makes much more sense. Literally, KJV only he who now letteth [will let], Greek monon arti katecho heos Literal Merely just now hold fast until. KJV until he be taken out of the way. Greek heos ginomai ek mesos Literal until to emerge from out of in the midst. It's an emerging from the midst where 'mesos' can also be 'middle'. Ginomai is a term that can be used for appearing on the world stage. " ‘Ginomai’ (he be taken) Definition to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen of events to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage of men appearing in public to be made, finished of miracles, to be performed, wrought to become, be made Not sure why 'ginomai' was rendered 'he be taken' but that concept does not appear in the definition as 'ginomai' is an appearance of something that wasn't there before, and thrust into the affairs of the world, like the drawing back of a curtain. In proper English then the last part of 2 Thess 2:8 should read more like, "All you have to do is sit tight until the beast is revealed to the world in the middle." Most, if not all, the agenda driven wolves exile the context in favor text fragments that can be molded into any configuration. One can easily see, if they look, the proper reading of 2 Thess 2 1:8 tells us the beast and the rebellion comes before the Day of the Lord and our gathering together to him. The only 'restraining' in view here is that of the events of the sinful nature of man and the plan of God to release the beast running their course before the Lord will return to put an end to this folly, right after he grabs us up. There is no 'restrainer'. That concept of a 'he who restrains' is made up by nonsensical doctrinaires. Paul says, "Now you understand the holding back", which flows from the ideas presented about the 'day' that will not come, "because except the apostasy and the revealing of the one who proclaims himself to be God in the Temple". This is all about the order of events of the coming of the Lord and the gathering, and what must occur first as the signs given to those concerned, and not about some entity "restraining evil". Honestly, if some "restraining entity" is supposed to be "holding back evil" they should be fired cause they ain't getting 'er done. But you'll see. Experience is the best teacher. I know none of you will hear, but you will believe when you see the events, I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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